#108 – Histamine, Ferments & Traditional Foods

Bone broth, sauerkraut, milk kefir – fundamentals of an ancestral diet and foods that we know do us good.

So what do you do if actually they’re making you ill?

Histamine is a word that most of us have heard of and, thanks to the proliferation of health news, were also probably aware of histamine intolerance.

In this episode we will deal head-on with histamine and how it interacts with an ancestral diet. We’ll explain what histamine is and the problems it can cause. We’ll explore which staple ancestral foods are high in histamine and discuss alternatives that we can turn to if histamine is an issue for us.

Alison will share her own journey, eating low histamine for much of last year and, most importantly, we’ll talk about how is possible to heal from histamine issues whilst continuing to eat traditionally.

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One Earth Health make the grass-fed organ supplements we use and trust. Get 15% off your first order here and 5% off all subsequent orders here.

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To enter our liver capsule giveaway (US only), sign up for our newsletter at ancestralkitchenpodcast.com (at the top of any page) and One Earth Health’s newsletter at oneearthhealth.com (after a few moments on the site a popup will appear). Competition open until close of day, May 13 2025.

What we cover:

• Explaining histamine
• Exploring why we can have problems with it
• Histamine-containing food groups
• Histamine and an ancestral diet
• Histamine and fermented foods
• What traditional nutrient-dense foods can you eat on a low histamine diet?
• DAO food sources and supplementation
• How do we heal from a histamine intolerance?

Resources:

Kirsten Shockey’s post on ferments and histamine

Am I Menstrual? Episode interviewing Michelle Shapiro 1

Am I Menstrual? Episode interviewing Michelle Shapiro 2

Grass-Fed Beef Kidney (a great source of DAO) in One Earth Health online store. Get 15% off your first order and 5% off subsequent orders

Comprehensive histamine-containing food list

Lower histamine probiotics Alison talked about: Smidge Sensitive Probiotic

 

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Transcript:

Alison:
Bone broth, sauerkraut, milk kefir, fundamentals of an ancestral diet and foods that we know do us good. So what do you do if actually they’re making you ill? Histamine is a word that most of us have heard of and, thanks to the proliferation of health news, we are also probably aware of histamine intolerance. In this episode we will deal head-on with histamine and how it interacts with an ancestral diet. We’ll explain what histamine is and the problems it can cause. We’ll explore which staple ancestral foods are high in histamine and discuss alternatives that we can turn to if histamine is an issue for us. I’ll share my own journey eating low histamine for much of last year and, most importantly, we’ll talk about how it is possible to heal from histamine issues whilst continuing to eat traditionally.

Andrea:
Welcome to the Ancestral Kitchen podcast.

Alison:
I’m Alison, a European town dweller living in England.

Andrea:
And I’m Andrea, living on a family farm in northwest Washington State, USA.

Alison:
Pull up a chair at the table and join us as we talk about eating, cooking and living with ancestral food wisdom in a modern world kitchen.

Music:
Music

Andrea:
Hello Alison, good afternoon and how are you?

Alison:
I am good, thank you. Good morning to you, your side of the world. It’s nice to speak to you.

Andrea:
Dark morning, but thanks to the time change, I can start to see a glow, dark blue glow in the sky or the mountains.

Alison:
Summer’s coming.

Andrea:
Yes. It shall come and it shall go. I need it to be approximately twice as long as it is.

Alison:
Yeah, but you wouldn’t want all that light. You know, we were reading about Antarctica the other day and how it’s just light all the time there. And Gabriel was like, how do they get to sleep? I don’t know.

Andrea:
Yeah, even in Alaska. I mean, even where we are at the 51st or 52nd parallel, it’s, you know, the sun, it’s light out until 10 o’clock at night in the summer. But… We pay for that in the winter.

Alison:
Yeah, exactly.

Andrea:
So did you have lunch?

Alison:
Yeah. Yeah, I did. And it was delicious. Really delicious. I got a beef heart. I will. I got a beef heart from our farmer whose name is Albert. Not as quite as kind of Mediterranean sounding as Flavia, is it? But he’s called Albert.

Andrea:
Well, he’s in Britain. It works.

Alison:
Exactly. And so, yeah, he gave us a beef heart last week and I did it in the slow cooker or the Instapot slow cooker setting as per my recipe, which is in Meals at the Ancestral Hearth, our cookbook. And then I minced it using our hand crank mincer that I got last month on kind of a secondhand site for £20. So I minced it all up. Gabe will help me, actually. We minced it together. I cut it and put it through the thing. Yeah, after it was cooked. Wow.

Andrea:
I never thought about doing that.

Alison:
And then I kept one portion out for the next day and then I froze two portions. So we got one at the freezer last night and then made a bolognese with it. So onions, mushrooms, a bit of cabbage, some broth, some tomato paste, salt, pepper, rosemary, a few other bits and bobs, I think. and then served it on the top of some heritage rice. I’ve been trying to find some decent rices, you know, not the kind of… Modern modern rice but some old heritage grains so we found some heritage rice and we served it over the top of that with and the boys had a bit of kraut on the side um and rob actually had a bit of a muffin as well that i’ve made um absolutely delicious and that um recipe if anyone is, interested the as i said the slow cooking heart recipe is in our seven meals in no is in our Meals on Ancestral Hearths, but the bolognese recipe for leftover heart, along with another recipe for leftover heart, which is creamy and mushroomy, is in the booklet that goes with the seven meals in one day episode, which is episode 91.

Alison:
Matt talks about how we cook at the weekend, in my case, a heart, in your case, Andrea, chicken, and then how we make that last a whole week. And I can do that with a beef heart. So if you’re interested in cooking at the weekend and then not really having to cook anything more than just pulling things together during the week, go back and listen to episode 91. And then the recipes are available for supporters of the podcast in a PDF. So, yeah, I had that. It was delicious. How about you? Have you had breakfast? Yeah.

Andrea:
You said PDF, but let us not downplay Megan’s awesome work.

Alison:
It is a really cute e-book.

Andrea:
It was the first e-book she did for us, and she did a really good job.

Alison:
Yeah, it is very, very beautiful and very nicely laid out. Thank you, Megan.

Andrea:
Yeah, I really like it. What did I have? Nothing. I’m starving.

Alison:
I’m sorry. I made you hungry.

Andrea:
That’s okay. I had waffles yesterday, though. Just our buttermilk waffles, standard usual, because the girls had a friend who came over and stayed for the weekend. And so we made waffles kind of fun, more special than oatmeal, I guess. And it was so cute because she… Uh six of them oh my gosh i think um we were just all so amazed we just kept making them and and she i couldn’t believe i was like where are you putting this she just kept stalking them away so um that i thought that was the cutest thing ever but she really loved them and she’s full of energy and she spent the entire weekend outside i told her mom when her mom came to pick her up i said you’re gonna have to wash everything in her bag everything’s covered in mud she got in her mom’s car with no shoes on no socks on because her shoes and socks were soaking wet um and her mom said oh that’s just what i wanted her to do so uh it was really fun what did you serve on the weekend what

Alison:
Did you put.

Andrea:
On the kids had butter loads and butter loads and loads of butter as the kids told me cover them in butter and then maple syrup okay simple very simple yep simple but delicious yeah lovely yeah so uh we have a five-star review allison so

Alison:
That’s always nice to hear.

Andrea:
Pretty awesome yes it is um it is from always b23 and the title is this review is long overdue so i’m excited to read it okay the ancestral kitchen podcast is a balm for the soul Allison and Andrea discuss all things food and beyond in a kitchen table style chat between friends. It’s my favorite way to unwind and soothe those frazzled nerves while picking up helpful tidbits. Awesome.

Alison:
It’s amazing how many people say that it’s a kind of relaxing process for them listening to us. And it’s kind of a relaxing process talking to you. So I feel that energy goes out.

Andrea:
I love sitting down and chatting. Yeah, when I know that tomorrow I’m going to be sitting for at least an hour and a half and just visiting. And we get to call at work. So that’s good.

Alison:
Yeah, exactly.

Andrea:
Cool. Yeah. So thank you, AlwaysBe23, for that very kind review. And if you want to leave us a five-star review, we will read it on the air.

Alison:
And smile at the same time.

Andrea:
Yes, we will. We will very much smile. Allison, speaking of five-star reviews, I am, I think, I think in this episode, listeners may have already been treated to me giving them an ad about One Earth Health. I don’t know where the timing falls, but I want to reiterate that so everybody knows our awesome podcast sponsor, Fassel, is hosting a really cool giveaway. So thank you to him. He owns One Earth Health, which is the company that you and I get our beef liver capsules from, which I am taking diligently every day, Allison. And even though we are also eating liver from time to time i am still taking it every day because I’ve, I don’t know. I just feel like I’m not getting enough in the food, in the meals for what I want. So anyways, and great for, great for Gary too. So I’m in the still recovering and rebuilding my system after draining process of being pregnant and sick for a long time. And gary is just generally very active and fit so he needs to be taking liver so it’s good for both of us um it would be good for the kids except they don’t know how to swallow capsules yet

Alison:
Oh no gable doesn’t got got that far either yeah.

Andrea:
They’ll get there uh so anyways a facile’s giveaway is for three bottles of the liver capsules which is fantastic that will last you three months i think that’s right okay um so you can sign up to our newsletter obviously you are all rushing to do that thank you and

Alison:
You can sign up podcast.com there’s a barrier banner at the top that you can go to to click and that’s how you sign up yep sorry i interrupted then.

Andrea:
Yeah no alison’s a professional here she’ll give us the link and sign up for Fassel’s newsletter as well which I’m also signed up for that is oneearthealth.com

Alison:
Yeah oneearthealth.com and I think if you just hang on the site for like 15 seconds it comes with a pop-up that’s easiest place to find it you know have a look around while you’re there and then a pop-up comes up and you sign up there yeah yeah.

Andrea:
Yep and we’ve we’ve got lots of great feedback from listeners in the discord about using it for uh actually tiredness and fatigue for liver you know i don’t know that it’s necessarily always the first thing we think of when you’re like hmm what do you do for my energy i don’t know liver but nutrition does something for us something to be said for nutrition yeah absolutely yeah so allison I actually, I actually also want to let people know, listen, you’re going to hear One Earth Health pop up again in this episode. So be paying attention for that. It’s, it’s a neat, a neat thing that you can do. So, Alison, why are we doing this episode, which I guess everybody knows from the title, they already know where we’re going.

Alison:
Yeah, and the intro. Exactly. So we are talking about histamine today. I think it’s been kind of a while in the making, I think, or last year. We were thinking, oh, we could do this. And you were saying, oh, could you do an episode on histamine? I get, we get a lot of questions about fermented foods and how they interact with histamine, ancestral foods and how they interact with histamine. And people who’ve been listening between the lines over the last year or so, will know that I’ve been experimenting with a low histamine diet. And lots of people have asked me, how’s it going? Why are you doing it what what you’re changing how what effect does it has how are you so I thought that we could um I could share publicly about that and also guide some people through what histamine is how it interacts with traditional foods and how if you think you have a problem you could kind of dig a bit deeper yeah.

Andrea:
Could you so you you said if you think you have a problem could you go back a little in time and just explain what your motivation was in the first place like how does some what made you think that histamine might be something to work on

Alison:
Yeah okay so um we’re 2025 now i spent most of last year 2024 on a low histamine diet and that kind of got pushed because christmas 2023 which sounds like so long ago but it wasn’t i self-diagnosed a syndrome called interstitial interstitial cystitis with myself um i was down with a really bad flu and at the same time I had a couple of weeks of rashes all over my body.

Alison:
Um, and as I always do, when I have kind of health ups and downs, I go in and I try to do a ton of research myself. And I found out that histamine is implicated as an antagonizer of interstitial cystitis. And I kind of had always thought for a while that, um, I potentially had a problem with histamine.

Alison:
Historically, I’ve had hay fever. I, I got hay fever as well. I started having symptoms for hay fever when I was about 12 and it was something that I really struggled with up till about 25 with really kind of bad hay fever and historically I’ve been the one who’s allergic to things I’m the one who suddenly comes up in a rash on my legs don’t really know why and it goes away and sometimes I figure out why sometimes I don’t and in my research you know because I’m always kind of researching and trying things the the research I did around histamine just taught me that histamine is so much wider than just allergies and hay fever people think oh histamine oh that’s a hay fever thing um or that’s an allergy thing but histamine can affect so so many things and you know one of the first dots I joined together was histamine and sleep for the histamine and anxiety the histamine and all these other different things so i i will you know we’ll go through the practicalities but i will also at the end of the episode um come back to my journey and talk a little bit about my conclusions and where i’m at now kind of a year and a half down the line we’ll we’ll talk about that at the end of the episode okay.

Andrea:
Great. And to hear a little bit, I don’t know the number off the top of my head, but to hear a little bit about your process on what you term taking your health into your own hands, when you referred to taking, getting that research, do listen to that episode. Allison and Rob did an episode together, and I think you did call it taking your health into your own hands. Yeah. And that is a paradigm and a way of taking ownership over your body. And it, I think, has led you to a lot deeper of conclusions than you would have got if you just went somewhere and said, hey, how do I get this rash to go away? So i think that’s really really important aspect of the um i don’t know the whole ancestral world to look at which is you know being being responsible for yourself in that way so i loved that episode and rob’s snarkiness is just right in that episode so go listen to that one so stay till the end to hear allison i i am really interested to hear where you’re at currently I know somewhat just because of our conversations but I do want to hear the more current updates so listeners listen till the end and we’ll hear how Alison’s doing now with

Alison:
It okay so let’s go to an outbreak and we will come back with some practical stuff okay so let’s get practical the first thing that I want to caveat this whole section with is that I am not a doctor this is not medical advice It’s just my story and my journey. Having said that, I have been living in a highly sensitive body for nearly 50 years. And I’ve gone much further than virtually anyone I know to try to heal myself, take responsibility for that. But I am extreme and you will hear that through this episode. I mean, I have to say, Sir Patrick Holden would never remember that he called me extreme. But of course, I remember that. We remember that.

Andrea:
We remember.

Alison:
I am extreme. And I’ve done a lot of things wrong. I’ve also done some things very right. And in all of my sharing, you know, whether it’s here, whether it’s in my writing, I’m honest. And, you know, about my journey and what I’ve done. And I’m not saying follow me and do me. I’m saying listen to me and think about it. So, yeah, that’s what I wanted to start this section with okay.

Andrea:
We’ll start us off with let’s get foundational and define terms what is histamine

Alison:
Yeah okay so histamine is a natural thing it’s a naturally produced chemical that is part of our immune system it’s both a localized hormone but also a neurotransmitter so transmit messages through our bodies it’s released by our body when there’s a threat and what it does it dilates your, arteries and your veins it’s a vasodilator and that means your arteries are able to expand and it helps white blood cells get to go where they’re supposed to go so that’s why it’s part of the immune system so there’s a threat the body releases histamine everything kind of speeds up and the white blood cells can go to where they need to do as part of that immune system it’s released by mast cells and that’s something that we’ll come back to later in the episode and are probably quite a big player in the picture if you have histamine issues. Mast cells are part of the immune system and they send things out when we need them, when our body needs to be defended.

Andrea:
Ah, yes. So anybody who’s spent much time around immune things knows that sometimes our body defends us when we don’t want it to.

Alison:
Yeah, we don’t need it.

Andrea:
Okay, so that sounds good and that’s a good start. Thank you for that explanation. It does clarify it for me. So why, but why, why can we have problems?

Alison:
So that’s a big question and different for everyone. So firstly, we could have too much of it in our body because there’s some issue that’s creating histamine in our body. So that could be a gut dysbiosis. We’ve got the wrong balance of microbes in our gut and they are producing histamine and putting it into our body. We could have a parasite infection, which can create too much histamine. We could have something called MCAS, M-C-A-S, which is mast cell activation syndrome, which is where your body is producing mast cells as part of your immune response when it shouldn’t necessarily be. And those mast cells carry histamine. It could be because of stress. Our hypothalamus in our brain produces histamine as part of our central nervous system and if our stress levels aren’t right obviously our body thinks there’s a there’s an emergency and it can produce histamine so those are four examples of why we might have too much in our body because our body’s creating too much.

Alison:
Another reason why we might have problems with it is because we can’t break it down. So we may not have particularly high levels of histamine, but if we don’t have the enzymes, the catalysts in our body to break it down, then we also might suffer from histamine problems. A third reason that we might have a problem with histamine is because we’re eating too much of it. Because food is a way that histamine is released in our body or brought into our body. And if we’re eating too much of it, we may, even if we can break it down, even if we haven’t got any of those other things that our body’s causing, we could just have too much of it. So those are the three main reasons. Does that make sense?

Andrea:
That absolutely does make sense. And that, again, you are, I’ve heard so many things scatteredly, but you are drawing it together in a beautiful narration of the situation. So thank you. and what you said about the mast cells made me wonder allison is this considered an autoimmune function or when it’s not working an autoimmune disorder

Alison:
Um i’ve not heard of it referred to as an autoimmune autoimmune disorder i’ve heard it referred to as an autonomic disorder so a problem with the automatic nervous kind of system the central nervous system that our central nervous system potentially is producing too much of something and so it’s a problem with the central nervous system as opposed to the immune system that’s my understanding of it um does that clarify, it does everything comes back to the.

Andrea:
Nervous system i mean

Alison:
Absolutely and i feel like that keeps coming back at me all my life i just have to understand nervous system nervous system nervous system yeah um yeah these the the amount of histamine we have in our bodies from these potentially you know three different areas um you’ll hear if you dive into it it’s it can be called the histamine load so you know we might not be eating any of the food sources of histamine but we could still have problems due to histamine from some other source.

Andrea:
Oh great that’s just what i wanted to hear allison

Alison:
Yeah okay so.

Andrea:
Uh now that you’ve told us this how do we fix it allison how do

Alison:
We heal okay let me just snap my fingers okay how do we fix it now that’s.

Andrea:
What we signed up for

Alison:
Oh exactly oh so this is a very nuanced question nuance everything is nuanced and the world wants everything simple don’t they so i think that many times that is the truth alison it’s just everything is nuanced it just is i’m sure there’s something that’s not nuanced like i don’t know what color are my shoes but you know life’s got some more important questions than that i think um many times in my own journey i’ve thought oh but you know this is because I’ve got a gut dysbiosis, you know, because I was twice my weight until I was 21. I had rounds and rounds and rounds of antibiotics as a kid before I understood all of this. And I thought, well, I’ve got a histamine problem because I’ve got gut dysbiosis. But I need those probiotics that apparently I can’t have when I’m on low histamine. And how am I going to fix my gut dysbiosis without those probiotics? I’ve just gone round and round and round and round in circles about this.

Alison:
And it’s taken me quite a while to unravel that question by reading and learning and realise that really, like everything, like I just said, the way forward is much more nuanced. And when we get to the end of the podcast and we talk about how I’m moving forward, we’ll talk about how we as a whole and anyone who’s listening to this worried about histamine can move forward. So we’ll talk to that question at the end, Andrea, OK?

Andrea:
Okay. All right. I can be patient. The more time you and I spend talking about food, not just cooking food, but actively thinking about it and talking about it and picking it apart together, I just realize more and more there is no ancestral food without beginning to weave in the ancestral lifestyle. It just goes together. And if you’re saying stress drives up that load as well as you know fermented food or something you know you want to have the bite of fermented food you i’ll just say gotta reduce the stress you know yeah so it’s just interesting because that’s uh Again, bringing in much more nuance than our pill culture has taught us to allow for. So, yes, let’s talk about food and what you keep saying. Some foods are high in histamine. So which ones, et cetera.

Alison:
So just a kind of an overview. Some foods have it and other foods cause it to be released into the body. So the largest kind of category of foods that have histamines in are aged food. So we’re talking fermented meat, aged cheese, any vegetables fermented, vinegar, fermented drinks, bone broth, leftovers are an aged food, wine, literally anything that is aged.

Andrea:
Fermented meat, just in case anybody’s like, I’m sorry, what? That would be something like sausages.

Alison:
Yeah, turretsos, you know, kind of. Pepperonins. Yeah, that kind of thing. Yeah. That’s right. um aside from aged food a lot of fish in their fresh slate yeah have histamine particularly seafood and then tinned fish does too yeah wow um avocados and some vegetable like spinach tomato and mushrooms and then as i said a couple of minutes ago some foods don’t actually contain histamine but they stimulate histamine release from mast cells in some people an example of that is citrus fruit so if someone’s interested in kind of diving into what foods are problems if you’re histamine sensitive there is a link in the show notes to a document that i used initially when i was trying to get my head around this which is very very thorough so just go to the show notes have a look and you can download that okay um let’s go to an ad break now and we will come back and talk about histamine and an ancestral diet, Okay, so let’s now talk specifically about histamine and how to work with it if you’re on an ancestral diet. Andrea, you’ve got two things I know you want to ask me. Yes.

Andrea:
You can feel me. So these are things, if I’m wondering, then people listening might be wondering too. And so, if I think I have a histamine problem or somebody in my family does, but I don’t want you listed, you know, all the foods that we have great relationships with, then what? Nutrient-dense foods, fermented foods, probiotic foods. And then the other is, I’m sure our ancestors who were eating aged food for at least half the year all the time didn’t walk around with all these problems, did they? And why? That is the other kind of question I have.

Alison:
Okay. So the first question, how do I move forward if I think I’ve got a histamine problem, but I don’t want to cut out all these healthy foods? We’ll deal with that we’ll literally go through step by step in a minute the second question is a really important one and one that i’ve wondered you know when i initially started i was like but why why is everything on this list all the stuff that’s good for you yeah what about the people who ate that in the past they’re not all walking around sneezing with hives all the time you know um and i think we have to remember as we’ve talked about many times on the podcast that we live in just a completely different world now to that in which our ancestors live in the past you know we you see studies where they where scientists take kind of samples from stools from people who are living um not industrial lives and the the absolute diversity in their gut biome compared to ours is staggering you know and that’s just that’s just the ones that scientists have found out that we’re missing. I’m sure if you go back several thousand, tens of thousand years, there are bacteria that don’t exist anymore because we killed them that were in those people’s lives. You know, they were eating far more, such a more diverse diet and they were living a different kind of life.

Alison:
Like you alluded to, the stress levels were different. They didn’t have pollution all around them. They didn’t have the issues that we’re dealing with in our really insane world and so i think it’s very difficult for us to say oh but our ancestors didn’t didn’t have this um you know how come we’re dealing with it now because our ancestors just they lived differently they ate differently their lifestyle was completely different and therefore you know they didn’t have the problems that we do and i guess you agree with that andrea.

Andrea:
Yes, I do. And it is, hearing you talk about the bacteria that we’ve killed off, there’s actually a word for that. Bacteriacide. It’s actually a word.

Alison:
Gosh.

Andrea:
So, it’s like genocide, but for bacteria. And that’s something that we make and produce and sell and bottle and spray on things.

Alison:
Oh, hands. Yeah.

Andrea:
So that is, that’s sad to think about that we don’t have the variety of bacteria. And it’s interesting to me, and I have hope, Allison, that as more and more people are doing these ancestral food things, I think the diversity will start to return. And I’ll allude to a hopeful scene that I saw when Joel Salatin did his documentary recently. He showed us a field or like a pasture in the forest where he raises his pigs. And there’s a really, really beautiful grass growing in there. And he said, nobody knows what it is. But the years of the pigs being in there rooting up has brought up. Wow. These like ancient seeds somehow and they started growing a variety of grass that nobody can identify so it’s like an ancestral grass and it makes me think that everybody around the world you know working um putting their ferments out and things like that yeah maybe maybe we’ll start to recover some of these bacteria it just is hopeful to me

Alison:
Yeah that’s amazing because you know once a bacteria gets in something like my boza for example my starter culture i’ve got for my boza once a bacteria gets into that it it seriously it’s got some food and it’s got some loving and i’m looking after it and so i can imagine that it would have a party in there and then if i’m sending a bit of that starter over to someone else and someone else is adding their stuff in and they’re sending it to someone else you’re right that that’s how things are reborn, so that’s hopeful thank you yeah, Okay, let’s talk about practicalities. Yeah, let’s talk about practicalities. So I’m kind of coming at this from, you know, maybe you think you have a problem with histamine or you think someone you love has a problem and you want to kind of experiment. So I’m just going to go through and I’m going to explain the foods that are higher in histamine and what we could have instead, potentially, if we want to play around with this for short term. So the first one is bone broth. Bone broth is very high in histamine.

Alison:
And the way that I worked with that last year when I was trying to be low histamine was that I made meat stock so bone broth is potentially mostly bones although that you might have a bit of meat in them and you cook it for a long time so I cook my bone broth for 24 hours meat stock has bones in it you might have for example a chicken carcass but it’s got more meat on it so for example when I go and get a chicken carcass from the market they’ve just chopped off the legs and the breasts but they leave a ton of meat on it that’s still there so then to make meat stock I will put that into a pot and I will just cook it for an hour and you get a beautiful beautiful stock you can do it you know literally if you’ve got a form of like a stewing steak or a braising steak you can cook that and the juice is meat stock so the difference is it’s short cooked so it’s not for a day or 12 hours it’s usually for an hour or two and then.

Alison:
To stop that creating histamine as you leave it in the fridge for days and days, the solution to that is to freeze it as soon as you make it. So, for example, if I’m making meat stock out of chicken, I’ll have two carcasses. I’ll put them in the pot. I’ll cook them for an hour. I’ll take the chicken out and we’ll eat the chicken. And then I’ll leave the stock out that I want for the next day. And then I’ll freeze the rest of it in small batches. And small batches is really the key because you don’t want a great big, like, you know, two quarts, two litres that you’re taking out the next day or the next week because then you’ve got to use all that up really quickly. So make sure you’ve got some small containers where you can freeze just enough for you if you just want a cup or just enough for a family meal if you’re going to cook some rice in it or, you know, some grains in it and freeze that as soon as you’ve made it. If it’s in the freezer, no histamine is developing. That’s a really important point. So then you just take it out the night before you need it, put it in the fridge in the morning you can use it so that’s the alternative to bone broth yep.

Andrea:
Can i ask you two questions one you use the cube things

Alison:
Right the you mean the silicon the silicon yeah the super cubes yeah they’re called i don’t have super cubes because when i bought my version of them i was in italy and you can’t buy them in italy but i have an equivalent, which is one cup each so it’s like four in a silicon tray four holes a one cup size each and I can pour my stock in there it’s got a lid that clips onto it and then I freeze it so I can just pop out one cup at a time yeah that’s what I.

Andrea:
Feel like even if you had a one cup you know you could you can put that in a pot little pan on the stove and melt it right

Alison:
On the spot too yeah or you can yeah you could just get it out the freezer and and defrost it yeah yeah no.

Andrea:
Planning the way i like it and the other question was do i remember rightly allison that in gaps sometimes it is um indicated that you should be using meat stock instead of yeah bone broth

Alison:
Yeah certainly at the beginning of gaps because it’s easier to digest meat stock than bone broth so anyone who’s dung apps will know about meat stock um because that is what dr natasha campbell mcbride suggests instead of bone broth for gut healing so yeah you’re right, on that account for sure thank.

Andrea:
You sorry back

Alison:
To okay back to the list okay so next thing is ferments so ferment any fermented food is higher in histamine so this is an area where you have to really be careful there’s no kind of quick switch like meat stock bone broth um kirsten shocky who is a very well-known fermenter with lots of books who has been a guest on our podcast and is over at the fermentation school says that salt reduces histamine there’s an article linked in the show notes um where she talks about histamine and fermented food so if you want a deep dive into that go there um so does she mean salt in the process.

Andrea:
Or salting it after the fact

Alison:
No she means in the process yeah so for example if you have a choice between using whey in a sauerkraut or no way in salt use the salt if you want histamine to be lower okay yeah.

Andrea:
So this isn’t something somebody can do and say oh i bought sauerkraut and i added salt like this is you got to make it

Alison:
You’re going to make it with the salt yeah yeah um plant-based ferments are lower in histamine than animal-based ferments so if you kind of want to weigh them up if you’re trying to figure out what you want to eat wow the veggie ones are going to have less histamine younger ferments are lower in histamine than older ferments so potentially don’t leave your sauerkraut quite so long okay.

Andrea:
I’m gonna ping you here allison for

Alison:
You have a.

Andrea:
Really good recipe for easy sauerkraut um the easy way sauerkraut and that actually we made that into a little ebook thing as well um and i think it’s in our meals at the ancestral

Alison:
Hearth cookbook.

Andrea:
As well okay so so your recipe is really good because it is actually a quicker one i noted that when i when I got your recipe from you in the first place it was much quicker than I do it so that’s a that’s a good way to do it

Alison:
Yeah I think you know from sauerkraut sometimes I, I’m not that organized and I haven’t made my sauerkraut in time and generally after a week I think it’s fine to eat you know sometimes Gable tries it after like five days he’s like nah it’s still cabbage it’s still cabbage but.

Andrea:
After a week it hasn’t alchemized yet yeah

Alison:
After a week I give it to me um okay so in the whole fermenting world there are certain strains that produce histamine and certain strains that do not produce histamine so if you’re really in into this you could for example find out which strains don’t produce histamine and you could buy those strains and you could make yogurt with those strains rather than the strains that produce histamine i remember doing some research onto that, You can also buy a lower histamine probiotic. So this is a company. Like to take? Yeah, that has come up with a probiotic. You can have capsule or powder. And it is only including the strains that are known to be lower in histamine. It’s quite expensive. I was going to say it’s quite expensive, but it’s actually made by a company called Smidge. And the link’s in the show notes. And you take such a little amount. And for me, because I’m so sensitive, I started with a tiny, tiny amount. The bottle lasts forever, literally. It sounds like it’s a lot of money to buy it, but it will last you a very, very long time if you work it out. Sorry, what were you going to say?

Andrea:
Well, I was just going to say, I’ve done this before with different probiotics. I don’t know if I’d work with this one, but you can sometimes open the capsule and make yogurt with it, even if it’s not necessarily labeled for that.

Alison:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, you can. So you can find, if you do the research on lower histamine probiotics, you can go and find those online and you can buy them open the capsule and make the yogurt. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So let’s move on to aged cheese. So any aged cheese that’s going to be high in histamine. Instead, eat young cheese. So you could have ricotta, you can have mascarpone, you could have a soft goat’s cheese. Any of those are going to have much less histamine in than your kind of Parmesan, 36 months aged cheese. these older chatters. The same with…

Andrea:
Would you freeze the ricotta, Alison, if you weren’t going to eat it the same day?

Alison:
I’ve never frozen ricotta. I’m a bit of a ricotta snob, having lived in Italy. And had ricotta really, really… Ricotta is just… I think it’s one of the cheeses that you just got to eat, like, soon. You know, if you just had ricotta made that day, it’s so nice. If you leave it for a couple of days, not really the same.

Andrea:
As soon as you have it fresh, you’re kind of ruined forever. Okay, I’ve never tried freezing it. although I have thought about it recently. I thought if I could freeze it and send it up to Leah that way.

Alison:
But I have not tried it. Report back, please. Yeah, well, I’m interested to see what happens. Okay, so along with cheese, aged meats. So we talked about those a little bit earlier. So I’m talking about salamis, really, and potentially bacon that’s been aged. So during my time when I was low histamine, I avoided those completely. There’s not really an alternative for salami you know so i just no alternative eating them the one the thing that’s also quite important to remember in here if you’re super sensitive is that beef is often hung and by hung i mean kind of left up by a butcher to age to make the meat tenderize so it is potentially the case that when you’re buying some beef it’s 28 days old because it’s been hanging. So the way that I kind of got around that when I was being super strict was I ate more chicken and I ate more pork. You know, you can go and talk to farmers and ask them how they process their meat. Some of them will only hang it for seven days. Some of them hang it for longer. Depends on their own processes. So don’t be afraid to ask. But yeah, do remember that beef is often much older than chicken or pork.

Andrea:
But the organs are not aged. No, take note, everybody. The organs are processed immediately or dealt with immediately.

Alison:
Yeah, absolutely.

Andrea:
As Francine’s… Family learned when they left the organs not francine but um they left the organs as long as the beef was aging and francine was like oh no

Alison:
I can’t eat those anymore yeah okay next thing on my list is vinegar and this was a struggle for me at the beginning how to not eat vinegar and i would just say you’ve got to try to be as creative as possible with your salad dressings. Lemon is a possibility. As I said earlier, it doesn’t contain histamines, but it can stimulate histamine release for some people. So just be careful. I mean, you could try replacing vinegar with lemon, but be aware that potentially you might have a problem with lemon too.

Andrea:
Yeah.

Alison:
After a while, I got used to just olive oil on my salads, adding herbs in, you know, fresh herbs in and the fresh herbs gave flavour. That was a hard one at the beginning though but just be aware that vinegar well you were in italy when.

Andrea:
You started this that’s what is just boggling my mind you’re saying things like salami aged cheese wine literally everything we associate with italy and vinegar

Alison:
Yeah so it was hard good job it was good job but you know um as i said i’m extreme i just yeah i want to get to the water or something i’m gonna do it patrick holden said yes exactly um okay sourdough is the next one so sourdough although cooked is higher in histamine than yeasted bread so my advice is basically what i did which is experiment try a little while with some soaked but not fermented bread options you know go with pancakes for a little while see if it makes any difference to you try yeast for a while instead of sourdough see if that makes any difference these tests that we do on ourselves are so hard because you can’t you know we’re not living in a lab and we’re going to go okay well I’m not going to try sourdough bread I’m not going to have sourdough bread for two weeks and then something else happens and you wonder was it the sourdough bread was it this was it that was it because I got stressed because my kid came home with this thing that I had to deal with was it because I went out and ate this other thing that I didn’t know how to it’s you end up tying yourself around in circles in knots so obviously we have to take this very lightly as lightly as possible which is hard when you’re facing health problems i know that very well but um.

Alison:
I think if you can take things out just for a short while and try to control as much as possible what else is going on, slowly we learn. And you might have to take it out, put it back in, take it out, put it back in, take it back. It’s like some sort of dance. And you’re just like, how many times have I got to do this? I can’t figure it out. Of course, this thing happened. But with bread, go to pancakes for a while, make a couple of loaves with yeast and see if it makes any difference.

Alison:
Seafood the next one on the list I just avoided seafood during that period rather than try and find an alternative to it because I don’t think there is one leftovers now that’s a big one, as I said earlier any meat that’s left in the fridge will slowly develop histamine any food that’s left in the fridge will slowly develop histamine so making a big stew once a week and then leaving it in the fridge and eating the leftovers for three or four days which I often do as you’ve heard me talk about many times on the podcast is a no-no if you’re trying to keep your histamine levels down so the answer to that is just when you’ve made a big stew you don’t have to stop making the big stews but just freeze them right away and freeze them in portions that are one portion so literally you know you’ve made enough stew perhaps I made enough stew for Rob and Gabriel and me for four days I’m just gonna eat one of them you know when it’s fresh and I’m gonna have three containers that I know contain enough for us to eat on three other meals and I’m gonna split it between those three containers and freeze them and then if they’re frozen the histamine’s not developing.

Andrea:
And I think generally speaking, Allison, if you’re doing a special diet or maybe unique within what even your family is doing, like, or gaps or something, for whatever reason, I think that’s a really good idea to have some of those frozen meals because there is an element of stress that comes in where you’re like, well, I can’t just kind of randomly jump. You know what I’m talking about? I can’t just randomly jump to whatever everybody’s eating or just have this little thing instead. But I’m too tired and I’m hungry, too. So having those frozen meals,

Alison:
I think is good. And here’s this frozen meal. Also, it’s kind of, after a while, eating the same thing four days in a row gets a bit boring. So freezing, it’s nice from that perspective too, because you can kind of mix it up.

Andrea:
If I see Rob wouldn’t care,

Alison:
He’d be like, so. No, he wouldn’t care. He’d just be like, yeah, whatever. It’s food. It tastes nice. I’m happy.

Andrea:
I have calories.

Alison:
Gluten. Now, some people find gluten causes histamine problems for them. Some people don’t. do listen to our episode 106 that we just recorded about eating ancestrally gluten free if you find that gluten is triggering for you then there’s lots of ideas in there that.

Andrea:
Was a great episode

Alison:
It was indeed I wasn’t.

Andrea:
On that one

Alison:
I’m not complimenting myself it was just coincidence, three more little random things buckwheat don’t eat the hulls the hulls are the black bit of the buckwheat they’ve got histamine the white bit doesn’t so if you can get light buckwheat flour which is kind of you know tan in color kind of creamy in color you can eat that if you get black buckwheat flour you might struggle with it because the holes are high in histamine malt is also high in histamine so avoid anything sprouted how many grains that are sprouted avocado too so i just avoided yeah i just we didn’t really we don’t really meet much avocado anyway because it doesn’t grow anywhere near us but um i just avoided yeah seriously, So that’s my long list of foods that potentially could be a problem if you think you are histamine sensitive and options. There are some other things you can try. So the first option I’m going to talk about is DAO supplementation.

Alison:
Now, DAO is an enzyme which is dioxide or something, diamine oxide or something.

Alison:
I should have written it down, but I haven’t because I just call it DAO. And that’s an enzyme that breaks down histamine that is the enzyme that breaks down histamine you can have a deficiency of DAO I know I don’t because I had a test about 10 years ago and I thought oh I don’t have a histamine problem my DAO is fine turns out I do have a histamine problem so don’t be fooled if you have a test that says your DAO is fine because you may still have a histamine problem but if you do potentially have a problem creating dao that might mean that you can’t break down histamine so dao supplementation is a way to potentially break down excess histamine that’s in your body and it’s a way to replace the dao if you don’t have any in your system it’s high in kidney it’s also high in pea greens so peas that are shooted enough to have green but you can also buy it in capsules and this is where i’m going to mention one earth health again that you alluded to earlier they sell grass-fed beef kidney and remember as an ancestral kitchen podcast listener you can get 15 off your first order and five percent of subsequent orders of any product at one earth health and that includes the dao kind of supplementation which is beef grass-fed beef kidney there is a link in the show notes that goes directly.

Alison:
To those supplements with that discount on it so if you want to experiment with dio supplementation and do it naturally there’s a link there that you can get hold of those.

Alison:
So DAO supplementation is a way you could also experiment. Another way you could experiment is take an antihistamine, see what happens to your symptoms, because antihistamines block histamine in your brain. So, I mean, I’m not suggesting anyone just carry on taking antihistamines, but if you’re like, is this a histamine thing? Then take an antihistamine, see if your symptoms get better. If they do, then you can kind of think, okay, well, actually, maybe I do have some issues with histamine.

Andrea:
I don’t think I would have thought of doing that but that’s a good idea for an experiment The

Alison:
Other two things that I want to mention here are quercetin and vitamin C, both of which are known to help break down histamine So quercetin is in, for example red onions and berries vitamin C, as we know peppers, berries, parsley all colourful foods, Nettles have vitamin C in and the quercetin is also in ginger, turmeric and garlic so if you want to try to help your body break down histamine if you can kind of sprinkle those things in your diet as much as possible then you’ll be supporting your body as much as you can, okay so what i want to say at the end of having said all this is that histamine experimentation is not meant to be a long-term thing it is it can be a very very restrictive diet and it can make you as i know from personal experience quite sad yes so don’t do it long term it’s not supposed to be a long-term thing it’s supposed to help you diagnose okay do i have this issue or do i not um i would say that i did it for too long um but as i said i am extreme so right histamine also does things that are positive so for example histamine secretes digestive enzymes so if you lower your histamine level you’re not going to have so many digestive enzymes in your systems.

Alison:
What I’ve learned from many years of kind of honing in on things and cracking down on them is that there are always consequences to taking things out of your diet and I go back to you know when I decided age 20 that I could no longer remain in a body that weighed more than 20 stone that was half the you know double the size that I am now I was just like right I’m going to cut fat out and you know I was encouraged by the prevailing culture around me that demonized fat and I did it and I cut that out my diet and I lost half my body weight but I am still living with the consequences of having cut fat on my diet for a year in my fat digestion in the way that I metabolize things in tons of things and that I’ve done that over and over again I’ve done things that are extreme and not realized afterwards that there are consequences to doing things not I realized that it was kind of later. And so I would say, you know, If you want to experiment with a low histamine diet, remember that histamine has a role to play in the body. And if you’re going to take it down very, very low, it will affect other things in your system too. So just take what I’m saying as a kind of almost a self-diagnosis to a way to play and understand more about your body.

Alison:
Okay, before we move on, Andrew, do you have anything that you want to ask about that section before we move on to the kind of how we heal section?

Andrea:
No questions i’ll just second your mention of the diamine oxidase thing the dao because i had a friend who specifically told me her husband does better when they have kidney in their dinner and that was how she realized um that the dao was there and um so i was really happy when i found out i didn’t know until you told me that facile has the kidney supplement because not everybody will be able to get their hands on a fresh beef kidney every week yeah so yay

Alison:
Great okay let’s go to an ad break and we will come back with talking about moving forward.

Alison:
Okay so moving forward from potentially doing an experiment how do we actually heal from this, and i feel i take a big deep breath at that point because i feel like this is the absolute million dollar question that I have been you know working around for like a year a year and a half each person is an individual here and healing is about so much more than individual foods you know we can talk about the practicalities and I’m good about talking about practicalities I love them but, Those individual foods and taking things out of your diet is just such a small part of a potential process. We have to look at ourselves as a whole. And for me, that journey has been doing a ton of reading and thinking I don’t fit into any of these things until I stumbled across a woman called Michelle Shapiro, who I first had interviewed on the Ancient Health podcast. And then more recently you sent me a podcast from the feed Am I Menstrual where she was being interviewed and it was her who really put the whole thing together for me she talked about.

Alison:
Hypermobility which is something that listeners might know that I struggle with another word for hypermobility the more kind of scientific word is Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and I was diagnosed with that I think about 15 years ago and it means that my collagen in my body is kind of lax and so my joints my bones move around and I injure myself more readily than other people and I take a lot longer to heal than other people but it also creates other issues in the body and it creates what I have basically which is a highly sensitive body whereas I react to kind of everything and anything and she talked about how that whole kind of paradigm links to histamine and she’s helped me or she is helping me through listening to her work and experimenting and and moving forward with that in the forefront of my mind to understand how I heal from this.

Alison:
So remember that histamine sensitivities could be because of gut dysbiosis. They could be because of mast cell activation syndrome, MCAS, which can literally be caused by stress. It’s your immune system thinking it needs to come to the rescue. Or it can be caused by, for example, mould exposure. There’s usually a trigger. Something stressful that happens in your life can push you into this MCAS, mast cell activation syndrome, and those mast cells, remember, are pumping histamine into your body when there’s no need for them to pump histamine into your body.

Alison:
So it could be gut dysbiosis, could be MCAS, could be a DAO insufficiency. So all of those things potentially, or any number of them, more than one of them could be playing into issues.

Alison:
And I think what I want to say is that you can heal from histamine issues, but that that healing may not look like how you think it’s going to look. And for me, my take from the experiments that I’ve been doing the last year and a half is that we cannot ignore the non-food part of our life and continue thinking we can fix all of our health problems through food. It’s easy for me and potentially for other listeners to distract ourselves by fixing the food and not actually addressing the problems in our lives that potentially are harder to fix than just changing what’s on our plate. That’s a big, big statement, but I’m hoping it makes sense to you, Andrea.

Andrea:
Yeah, that is… Gosh, that’s, it’s convicting and encouraging at the same time. You know, I feel like you and I’ve talked about both of us sometimes have a tendency when things feel like they’re out of control, then we start to control our food. And sometimes that actually becomes part of the problem because then the stress levels arise around that. And just keeping that holistic perspective in mind that you laid out here, I think, where you said, you know, we can’t just think that we can ignore everything else and only focus on resolving an issue through food. I think that’s a very important perspective to keep in mind, especially for those of us that are geared towards, you know, loving, looking at the food aspect of things.

Alison:
Yeah, absolutely. so.

Andrea:
Where you aren’t you aren’t as focused on low histamine now so i’m curious where where are you at now and kind of what’s your next

Alison:
Step yeah yeah so you’re right i’m not so focused on histamine now i’m i’m not refusing histamine at every single place in my life going no no no So I’m not going crazy on histamine food. So, you know, for example, I’m not really eating aged meats. I’m not eating any salami. I’m not, for example, eating any tinned fish. I’m not eating seafood. I’m not really eating aged cheese. Sometimes I’ll have a little bit, but I’m eating fresh cheeses. My diet really is, I would say, histamine low, But I’m experimenting again with probiotics and different sources of potentially histamine creating kind of microbes. I do still have my low histamine probiotic in powder form, which I’m using. So like you said, you know, when things seem out of control, it can, the easy choice perhaps for some of us can be to just control the food. And yet that can create more stress than it’s actually solving. And I feel like that’s the point where I got to.

Alison:
So as it stands now I’m eating sourdough bread I’m but I’m not eating some of the stronger histamine foods and I’m eating vinegar again because I missed that but I’m not eating any avocado because I can’t get it around here anyway it’s kind of a bit give and take I would say I’m still you know if you’d put a line down the middle of histamine and no histamine foods I’m still on the side of the less histamine definitely but what I’m doing is having looked at all the reasons why this can potentially be triggered in people and applying that to myself I can see that there are many many many stresses in my life that potentially could cause or could be causing my immune system.

Alison:
To react by setting off tons of histamine in my body and that feels like a big issue and that.

Alison:
The kind of reason I know it’s a bigger issue is because it feels much more knotty to solve like you know I can walk into the kitchen and I can go no I’m not going to eat that parmesan.

Alison:
Yeah and I’m good at it you know I’ve been doing it since I lost that weight like 30 years ago, and Rob’s there to support me and you know Gable never complains and I can come up with some weird creative thing and make good food whatever and that’s it was easy changing my habits that is not easy you know habits that have built up over decades habits that I think support me but don’t you know habits that help me get to where I want to go you know it there’s I doubt there are very many people listen to this podcast who are perfectly happy with where they are in their life you know there are things that we want to move towards and you know in my life and in my family’s life there are goals that I have that potentially could involve me acting in a way that doesn’t support me that creates more stress and there are things that I every that I do every day that I think I have to do and those create stress and so it’s been a case of me the case for me kind of looking at my life and the triggers and what’s happening and saying hang on a minute do I actually need to do that how can I do that in a different way and I always feel like with habits.

Alison:
If we can just change them a little bit, like 1%, it feels like 1% is nothing. But if you change something 1%, it has had an effect. And that 1% opens a door for potentially more. So, you know, I might say, for example, oh, I want to do some yoga every morning. I want to get up at four o’clock and do yoga for an hour. And if I don’t do it every day, I’m a failure. Good gracious. Exactly. Are you talking about past me? Exactly. But actually now here on some nights where I’m not sleeping, on some days where I’ve been working really hard the night before, on days where I just want to sit in bed with a cup of tea.

Alison:
I could force myself to do that, but that’s not going to be beneficial for me. So what’s going to be beneficial is when I feel like doing the yoga or when I think maybe I feel like it. Maybe that’s where the little push is on those days where I’m not sure. And I can end up doing yoga three mornings a week, four mornings a week. And actually, I really enjoy it because those are the moments when it was right for me.

Alison:
So for me, I’m working on those stressors, trying to create space in my life to bring myself joy, to bring myself comfort. Where those usually go off the table and I just like, right, I’ve got enough money to pay the rent. So I’m just going to work work work and I’ve got to make sure I do this this and this I’m just going to work work work that has I’m looking at that and I’m saying okay that is still there but also these things are very important too and they’re important not only you know they’re not frivolous they’re important not only for me to enjoy my life but they’re important also because they change my state of being they change my body they change the chemicals in my brain so I’m working on my stressors. I’m working on changing the knotty things that feel harder to change than just what I’m cooking in the kitchen. And I’m also working on my kind of cognitive awareness and my behavior around those stressors. So, you know, something’s really stressful. I have a habit of maybe going into a meltdown or thinking it’s the end of the world. And I’m creating space in my day so that I’m more aware when I go into those moments of crunch so I can perhaps go hang on I’ve got an option to act differently in this moment and sometimes I don’t sometimes I just go into the same old same old as we all know but sometimes there’s a little bit of space so.

Alison:
I feel that that’s my journey. And for someone, you know, for everyone listening, they’re all going to have their different story, you know, if there is a histamine sensitivity there. But I feel like I, you know, I need to be an advocate for, yes, we can do this with our food and it will help. It will help us understand ourselves more, but we really need to go as deeply as possible into all the layers of our life in order to move ourselves forward and heal. And we are all on our own journey, you know, we are all on the journey we are on. Some of us have it easier. Some of us have it harder. And again, I think I said this on the Taking Your Health In Your Own Hands podcast. You know, if you compare yourself to others, you’ll just be kept down because you’ll think, how does that person get to do that? How does that person get to do that? Compare yourself. If you have to compare yourself to anything, compare yourself to where you were before you changed to eat more healthy food, where you were before you started going for a walk once a day, you know. Compare yourself to yourself and how you’ve changed. Don’t look at other people. Think about how you’re working, how you’re spending your time. Enlist all the support you can. Listen to us. Listen to as many supportive people as possible and keep going because you can change things. That was a bit of a ramble, Andrea. You’re still there. That was beautiful. I.

Andrea:
Was really enjoying it so thank you

Alison:
Cool okay if you have questions if you’re listening and you have questions and you’re a supporter let us know we have got an exclusive podcast recording session coming up in a couple of weeks for the private show that goes out for supporters it will go out next month so I’m happy to answer any questions on anything that I’ve talked about today send them into our email address which is hello at ancestral kitchen podcast dot com, Okay, anything else, Andrea?

Andrea:
I really enjoyed that, and I feel like I learned a lot. And it always circles back to reducing our stress and being more present and more conscious about our life and not trying to take on the world and do what everyone else is doing and try to make everybody else happy and not even listen to our own body. So, it all circles back again and again to the same thing. So, I appreciate you sharing all that, Allison, and all that about your personal experience as well as all the research which I have been watching you do for a year and a half.

Alison:
You have been.

Andrea:
Reading and reading and dropping little nuggets as you go and trying to figure out the puzzle pieces. And so it’s great for all of us here to get, you know, your layman perspective for us.

Alison:
Thank you.

Andrea:
Many of us lay listeners. So thank you for that.

Alison:
No problem. It feels good to share and, you know, to help wherever I can, if I can. So thank you. Okay. Till next time.

Andrea:
All right, Alison.

Alison:
Bye for now. Bye.

Andrea:
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Andrea:
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