Kitchen Table Chats #50 – Handling Potlucks, Transitioning Children, Fiction & Addiction/Environment

ByAlison

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In this episode, we answered these listener questions (and more…)

From Hannah:

I would love to hear how you both handle potlucks and other events where you are sharing food with others, and they’re sharing with you. I never want to hurt people’s feelings but I also don’t want my family regularly consuming things that I deem toxic to our health.

From Ella:

I’m wondering if you have ideas for getting kids used to ancestral food. My husband and I are working on getting licensed to hopefully adopt from foster care and would like some advice on helping kids adjust to a different way of eating.

Brittney:

I am taking Alison’s rye course … I just love her … everything she does, she clearly researches to the Nth degree. How did you two meet?

Hannah:

I am curious about balancing the desire to eat a certain way with social obligations. I am a young mother of two toddlers, and we are very involved in our church and other community groups, three to four times a week. However, I sometimes dread attending things because of the long tables of “kid food” i.e. junk that will inevitably be within my kids grasp. I have tried to dissuade them, but it can sometimes cause a scene. How do you approach this, especially in toddler years where “no,” is just hard for them?

What We Talked About:

Transcript:

Andrea:
Hello, Alison. How are you today?

Alison:
Hi, Andrea. Yeah, I’m well. I just heard Rob getting the loft ladder down. That’s a noise that’s going to be ingrained in me forever, having spent, I don’t know, the last six weeks just listening to him getting the loft ladder down, putting it back up.

Andrea:
We have one of those ladders in our garage that you pull down from the ceiling and it’s like a squeak and like a grind, then a clang and then a sort of wonk wonk as you pull the ladder down. I wonder if that’s what you’re hearing over there.

Alison:
It’s that. It’s that. Because we’ve got a whole internet factory up in the loft. We’ve got this internet so we can talk to each other. But Rob’s mum just moved in and I was trying to help her sort out some things on her computer. So he’s gone up there to put another internet up there so that they can use that one, not this one. It’s like a whole internet world in our loft.

Andrea:
You know, Rob should probably also take a little box of chocolates and like a blanket and a pillow, something to read. Just make himself a little nest up there. He can kind of relax while he’s checking everybody’s Wi-Fi or whatever.

Alison:
I could hide something, couldn’t I, by the place where he goes and say, look here, and you’d have a treat for being up there.

Andrea:
Does Gabriel go up there?

Alison:
Oh, Gabriel, you can’t stop him going up there. He’s always up there.

Andrea:
Yeah, I figured.

Alison:
Some things arrived for Christmas. this morning for him and rob was like we can’t even put them in the loft because it goes up there.

Andrea:
Uh is this isn’t a trick i’ve learned for hiding things in the.

Alison:
Freezer could.

Andrea:
You put it in a box labeled something else.

Alison:
Yeah that’s not a bad idea.

Andrea:
We’ve done that, like a box that’s like electrical cords or something.

Alison:
Yeah. But no, if it was electrical cords, Gabe would be in there. Just is there anything he wouldn’t be in? I don’t know.

Andrea:
No, probably not. Not at that age.

Alison:
So it’s nice and early for you. Have you had some breakfast yet or was your last meal last night?

Andrea:
Well, I’ll be, I have tea, but I’ll be eating when I get off of here. But I had a, actually a tasty dinner last night. it was inspired by our kitchen live and rebecca talked about making cock leaky soup.

Alison:
Ah yeah yeah.

Andrea:
In england when she was there visiting yeah and so we made that yesterday it was actually really great because i was taking jacob to a piano lesson so i just kind of excuse me sorry i kind of dumped the soup onto the stove and then left. And then when we came back that night, you pour it through a strainer and then shred the meat off the bones back in. And I don’t know if anybody has shredded stewing hens, but it’s always a little bit more effort than shredding like a padded chicken, if you will. But it’s kind of entertaining. So everybody did their chores, cleaning up and whatnot while I shredded chicken back into the pot. And then do you remember how she said she cooked it with plums or that prunes?

Alison:
Prunes, yeah.

Andrea:
And that was kind of traditional.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
So I didn’t have prunes, as it turns out. But what I did when I served our bowls, I didn’t do this for the kids, but Gary and I sprinkled maybe dried wolf berries into each of our bowls. And then I also… I had a jar of honey-fermented jalapenos that Rachel DeThample had inspired.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
So I sprinkled a couple of those on top too. And oh my goodness. It was really good. And we also slept really well.

Alison:
You said you strained it. Does that mean that the leeks stayed in the strainer and you didn’t have them in the soup?

Andrea:
Yes. So what the recipe calls for, at least the one I read, there’s probably different ones out there. You know how it goes. But you strain the soup out and you pour the broth back into the pot. And then actually, I didn’t have anywhere to set the strainer. You know how you put the strainer in the bowl, strain the pot into the bowl, and then you have a strainer that’s dripping. And so I set the strainer back on top of the pot, and then I poured the broth back over the strainer into the pot. And then I put the strainer back into it. Right. And then I, actually the recipe calls for then putting the whites of the leeks into the pot at that point. But you happen to know that I have somebody who doesn’t want to eat onions.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
And I said, well, these aren’t onions and they won’t be in the soup. So I knew I wouldn’t be able to add them back in. Right. But actually, I think it was pretty perfect. the texture maybe would have been, I don’t know, different.

Alison:
But I wonder how you could even separate the white bits from the green bits in your sieve to put them back in. Wouldn’t that be?

Andrea:
Oh, sorry. Sorry. I should have been more specific. They have you cut the green bits and put it in while it’s cooking and then cut the white bits and set them aside. So the white bits weren’t cooked.

Alison:
Oh, I see. So you could have put those in later at a later stage after you’d strained it.

Andrea:
Yeah. So they would have been a little crunchy and crispy. beat what i did was i just set the bowl in the fridge well actually a fun story our fridge stopped working so it’s in a fridge on our deck but um that is just gonna be used for something else gosh i am probably sausage related i am we’ve.

Alison:
Always had by just sheer coincidence two fridges in our house until now we’ve only got one fridge so if something happens to our.

Andrea:
Fridge we’re in trouble, We’ll see.

Alison:
Hopefully not.

Andrea:
Yeah. Did you eat before we got on?

Alison:
Yeah, yeah. Thinking, what do we have? What do we have? It’s just so chaotic here because we just all arrived back from Stella’s house, Rob’s mom’s house with her in tow and a big van last night.

Andrea:
Yeah, this isn’t even our normal day.

Alison:
Yeah, exactly. We had to shove the day. The whole family was like.

Andrea:
You’re recording tomorrow? You’re not recording today. It’s like, what’s going on?

Alison:
Um yeah we had um oh uh pancakes because i put a bread on when we got back last night but it’s not it’s in the oven now actually rob’s in charge of it um but so we didn’t have bread so i made some i mixed together some pancake mixture this morning which was about percent a wheat called yq wheat and which is sold by hobmodod’s in the uk and it’s a wheat that was developed over time by a famous kind of um grower um in the south of england by taking old strains of wheat like heritage strains of wheat that he read about in the area and then testing it out in the field you know what what actually thrived the best okay we’ll use some of this like a natural sort of heritage selection as would have happened you know before industrialization and so this wheat It’s called YQ wheat and it’s something to do with the DNA or something of it. I don’t know why it’s called YQ. Anyway, we tried it to see whether Rob would be OK with it because he was previously OK with a wheat called Squarehead Masters, which was a s thatching wheat. And turns out he’s fine with this YQ wheat, too, because it’s made from old strains of wheat. So it was about percent that. And the other percent was Emma.

Alison:
Which again is grown in this country from Hobbitodds. And I ground both of those in the mock meal. Then I put a little spoon of sourdough starter in and the water and some salt and left it just on the side all morning.

Alison:
And then I fried that up in some lard and there was some leftover cold cauliflower in the fridge. Rob had that. I cooked some Brussels sprouts. We both had Brussels sprouts. And I had an egg, which I fried after the pancakes. And Rob had a little bit of leftover mackerel. And Gabriel’s off inventing things today at his session he loves. So we were, it was just the two of us eating. And then I’ve got my oat straw tea and I had two delicious chocolates, % cacao, just before we came up.

Andrea:
Perfection.

Alison:
So yeah, very, very nice indeed. Okay.

Andrea:
Having no bread and then having to make a pancake is such a good kind of reminder of the, I don’t know…, Brittany and I were talking about this the other day, like the rolling over the continuous nature of an ancestral lifestyle and how when you get pulled out of it, you know, there’s this idea of go on a vacation for a couple days and come home. And with an ancestral lifestyle, you can do it, obviously. And at the same time, it’s also everything’s so dependent on this like continuous nature of things. And it’s not it doesn’t lend itself so well to the stops and starts that industrialized culture is very very prone to.

Alison:
Yeah they kind of encourage it even you know well why would you bother doing all this stuff that takes three four days in rotation to come to fruition when you could just stop off at a big supermarket on the way home and pick up a dish that you just have to stab the, plastic cover on the front and put it in your microwave, you know? Why would you do anything?

Andrea:
Stab it. Stab it to let the air come out.

Alison:
And put it in the microwave. Or Rob’s mum had a microwave but we haven’t brought it, which really pleases me.

Andrea:
Yay. That would have… Well, see, we evaded that all together by not being able to run a microwave on our powers. Anyways, but that is nice. I feel like, The farther away you get from, I’m just going to use microwaves as an example of the machine. The farther away you get from microwaves, the more of a jolt they are when you see them.

Alison:
Oh, they are horrible.

Andrea:
Like when you go somewhere and somebody says, why don’t I just pop it in the microwave? And I’m just like, what? The thought didn’t occur to me. My mind was already mentally set to get out a pan, put a little water in it, take a little time, sit down and wait. You know what I mean? And they’re like, well, this just takes seconds. And it’s like, I can’t even adapt to the seconds. I’m like, I’m not ready yet. Emotionally, I’m not there.

Alison:
I wrote an article last week about the different types of oats there are because there’s just so many and they’re all called different things. And it’s really confusing. And I had to include in it instant oats and quick oats.

Andrea:
Sorry.

Alison:
I had to look up and see how long they take. And it’s like, so quick oats weren’t quick enough that take two to four minutes to cook. No, that wasn’t quick enough. Someone had to invent instant oats that only take a minute and you can pour boiling water over them, leave them a minute, and then you can eat oatmeal. It’s just like, it’s exactly like the microwave thing. It’s just like, really?

Andrea:
Yeah.

Alison:
And I’m not going to pour this over my, I want to stand there and stir them. Yes, I want to stir them. I want to be in my kitchen.

Andrea:
I want to wait.

Alison:
And I want it to take, you know, , minutes. Thank you very much.

Andrea:
Something’s developing.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
Jacob sometimes talks about teleporting or apparating, you know, apparating like in Harry Potter or whatever. Isn’t that the one where they like disappear and appear somewhere else or something?

Alison:
Yes, that’s right.

Andrea:
I don’t know all the words. Anyways, he was talking about like, wouldn’t it be so cool if we could teleport, then we could just do this. And I told him, if people could teleport, like none of that, the entire framework of your life would be different. Like everything changes. Everything is based on it takes time to get somewhere. And… In a way, we live in a world of teleportation because, you know, before if, well, for one, I’m talking to you over the ocean. But aside from that, if I wanted to go and see you, we’d be planning like a multi-month journey for me to go. I’d probably stay with you for two or three months or a year and then take a long journey home, you know. So, and, but I could, if I, if I really wanted to, if I was, say, a business person like this, I could just fly to Stroud and be there for an afternoon and literally fly home the next day.

Alison:
Yeah. If you were, if you were Donald Trump with Air Force One, you could do it.

Andrea:
Yeah. Anywhere you want. But that’s, so it is kind of like we can teleport. And, and everything about our world changed. And, you know, you were talking the other day about walking and how long it takes to walk somewhere. And if I said, oh, let’s just hop in the car, we could walk down there or drive there in five minutes. And it just, the day, the entire day changed, you know. I don’t know. It’s just interesting.

Alison:
Absolutely.

Andrea:
What do we have for the questions?

Alison:
Well, I’ve got one more thing to say for the questions, if that’s allowed. It’s really interesting, that perspective of everything changes when you can teleport or even travel. I’ve just finished reading a book called The Glassblower a fiction book set in Venice and it follows the story of one particular, female glassmaker and what’s really I don’t know if it’s unique but very interesting about it at least is that the book has five parts and each of those five parts is set in a completely different time, history, part of history but it is the same characters that live in those five different time periods.

Andrea:
Just got chills. I love that.

Alison:
They age a bit. You know, they age like years, but actually , years goes past. And so at the beginning… It’s like and something. And they’re in Venice. And Venice is so different to what it is now. You know, it’s like a real trade center. It’s amazing what’s happening with the makers and the glass makers there and what they’re doing. And then they skip forward a bit. And, you know, it’s sort of Casanova’s time. Then they skip forward a bit more. And at the very end, it’s the same character. And she’s now . And it’s the same character that I, you know, I listened to because I’m listening to it, living in the s. and how the plague had affected them and how their life was so different. And now it’s and she’s talking to people on her phone and having conversations with her family with video calls and, you know, she’s going into the supermarket. And it was so weird to kind of witness in one story with one character the difference between how her life was and literally every decision, like you’re saying, whole life completely different in the early parts of the book. Through to the same character basically being you know dropped in with the ability to travel and the technology and the different way of living it was it’s kind of sobering and a really forced you know intense focus on what you’ve just said you know that everything changes when that changes.

Andrea:
Yeah, I’m very intrigued by that. Did you enjoy the book? Would you recommend reading it? Oh, it was brilliant.

Alison:
How did you feel about the book? Absolutely brilliant. Yeah, I’ve read two books on Venice recently. The first one was called The Instrumentalist. And it was actually a story of a woman who interacted with Vivaldi, basically. That’s a short version of it. And that was a brilliant book. I loved it. And I was so intrigued learning so much about Venice and its historical you know the journey of Venice and how it was when it was a not a tourist town before it was a tourist town and so I saw this one come up and I thought oh this is interesting and again this one the glass blower it’s kind of you know instead of being about music it’s about glass but again I’ve learned so much about Venice and so much about different histories and and so much about the the world of glass and they’re both of them absolutely brilliant and this one I just didn’t I just didn’t want it to end I was you know it’s like you get to a book and you’re like oh no I love these characters so much I want to spend more time with them you know do.

Andrea:
You remember the author of that book I know Daphne du Maurier wrote a book.

Alison:
About the glassblowers but the glassblower is Tracy Tracy Chevalier um Yeah, the first book, The Instrumentalist, I can’t remember the lady’s name. Again, it’s a lady. But because I only finished The Glassblowers last night, and so the name’s in my head. The Instrumentalist, I can’t remember the lady’s name. But if you look it up, there’s only one book called The Instrumentalist about Venice in the s.

Andrea:
Perfect.

Alison:
It’s fascinating, the history.

Andrea:
Fascinating. I love that.

Alison:
Anyway, that’s what I wanted to say about that. We should go to the questions now. We should do. Yeah, I saw the questions. We have some really good ones. I wonder whether we should group the two ones about kind of going out, you know, potlucks and toddlers together. Do you want – shall I read those two and then we’ll dive in?

Andrea:
Yeah, why don’t you read them? Yeah, okay. I’ll be ready.

Alison:
Okay, so they’re both from Hannah. I think it’s the same Hannah, but it might be a different Hannah because we’ve got lots of Hannahs. Okay, so she says, I would love to hear how you both handle potlucks and other events where you are sharing food with others and they’re sharing with you. I never want to hurt people’s feelings, but I also don’t want my family regularly consuming things that I deem toxic to our health. That’s the first question. And then a similar kind of question. i’m curious about balancing the desire to eat a certain way with social obligations i’m a young mother of two toddlers and we are very involved in our church and other community groups three to four times a week however i sometimes dread attending things because of the long tables of kid food i.e junk that will inevitably be within my kid’s grasp i have tried to dissuade them but it can sometimes cause a scene. How do you approach this, especially in toddler years where no is just hard for them? So difficult. I think this is one of the most, most difficult parts of living and eating this way. Brown children. It just, it’s so hard. I really, I want to hear what you’ve got to say about it, Andrea.

Andrea:
Well, I do concur. And I also, it is one of those things where… It is just harder to do things now than it was in some of these, some times. And it is easier to do things now than it was in some other times. You know, we have the advantage of an oven so we can bake something if we have an idea of baking, you know, an ancestral type food. But we have the difficulty of there being, you know, we need those little conveniences because there is no culture that supports what we’re doing right now. So hannah and hannah if you’re two different hannahs i i hear you when i see you i think this was easier for us to handle when we weren’t as involved in going to things like hannah said in the second question we go three to four times if you’re doing this yeah if you’re doing it two or three times a year it’s kind of like uh you know we we train them the best we can and and um, and you do what you can. But when it’s three to four times a week, you’ve got to have a strategy.

Andrea:
This is hard. I don’t know because we don’t go to a lot of potluck type things. For the most part, my kids at this point are old enough that…

Andrea:
I’ve told them, I really don’t, like, this isn’t something that we eat in our family, or this isn’t, you know, and I’ve told them also, they’re also old enough that I can say, please don’t tell them, don’t tell the person, I don’t eat that kind of food, you know. Because I told them, you know, when people make you something, or when they make something put on the table, even if they’re using food that we don’t feel is okay for us to eat, they’re doing it with love in their heart and genuine kindness. They’re not doing it out there like, hey, get those kids with these seed oils, you know? So, you know, it’s not, it is not okay to be rude about it, even if we don’t like it. But, oh, I don’t know. We, a lot of the people that we spend time around do eat this way, like just because it happens to be, you know the the groups that we’ve kind of evolved and then when we go she’s alluding to church and other community groups i’m trying to think we don’t really go to potlucks, so for the most part if you go somewhere we are bringing food and then when we go to, church events there really is usually a pretty good range of things and you can kind of spy out the things like the kids will say does this have dye in it because they know I’m just like I’m really adamant about it it’s like does this have dye in it I’ll say yeah I’m sure that has dye in it the.

Alison:
Problem is if.

Andrea:
You’ve got a.

Alison:
Toddler they’re just gonna grab whatever they’re gonna.

Andrea:
Grab yeah that’s the thing yeah and my three olders will probably be influential for my up-and-coming toddler I’m guessing because they’ll say oh you’re not supposed to have that or they probably won’t let him. So I think, well, I will say the point that we’re at now came about through the, An exhausting level of paying attention and constant dialogue, or as I call it, propagandizing the kids towards my way of thinking about food. And knowing that they can grow up and choose their own, you know, they can choose what they want when they’re out of my purview, if you will. But for now I have to do the best by them that I know and so I must choose for them what I feel like according to the best that I know is you know that’s not to say when they’re they’re not going to grow up and go to some fast food place that’s that’s their choice but um I hope that I can influence them at any rate and for now it seems like they.

Andrea:
They also, you can help with dialoguing, hopefully, but I have found it helpful to say, you know how we feel like this after that, you know, and start to make an association. And I remember uh there’s a doctor out here and he’s he really I think you he wrote the book dirty jeans I think you’ve heard of him I can’t remember his name but he talked about how you know he teaches he taught his kids and they’re teenagers like older teenagers now he taught his kids you know the best he could about food and everything and um his son went to like a.

Andrea:
Not like a wild party but like a youth party type thing and and came back and and um had eaten all the junk food and then the next day was like i feel so sick and he was like oh yeah you know eating food like that does that huh and he he was like at this point i can’t just preach at him at this point he has to start to draw his own conclusions he has to have his own epiphanies But that does start when they’re toddlers. So also, Hannah, make get a reputation, like make a reputation for yourself. I I think I often was too timid about trying to get a reputation for being the crazy lady. But when you’re when if you’re really particular, people will say, oh, she her kids don’t that or her kids. She doesn’t let her kids eat that. And it’s OK. Like, that’s OK to have that reputation. Yeah. So what do you think, Alison?

Alison:
Oh, it’s hard. I think whenever you’re feeling down, Hannah, just remember that Andrea and I and everyone who’s listening to the podcast and everyone who supports the podcast is with you because, you know, we’ve all been there and it’s not difficult. I always, I think, I don’t want to be antisocial, but Rob and I are both introverts, But we always are really choosy about the things that we go to. You know, we when we’re a bit more like you, the Mayor to Hannah, we’re not going to things very often. And part of it is because we know when Gable was younger, there’s just going to be rubbish food there. You know, and often we’ve gone to events where there’s been food and we’ve just taken sandwiches and just gone off. You know, not like stood in front of everyone with the sandwiches, but we’ve gone to sit on a bench, you know, on the other side of the park and we’ll just eat our sandwiches. Then we’ll get on with the rest of the event.

Alison:
But I think we’ve we in the past we’ve we’ve chosen to be selective about what we want to go to because we’ve not wanted to expose ourselves or Gabriel to that when when we have gone to things like that I always try to take something that I know that Gabriel would absolutely love and yet is you know is good food exactly so he would he’s familiar with that he knows that and so he’s gonna to some extent gravitate towards that because it’s the thing he likes. Now, you know, with toddlers, that’s hard because, you know, if there’s some bright red things or some bright yellow things, they’re going to potentially reach for them. But to make sure you’ve always got something with you that they know and they love and to steer them towards that in a way that’s, you know not ridiculously hyper vigilant um and then i think like you’re saying andrea it’s kind of the long game to some extent that you know if the kids have got an example of two parents who are eating really well and the kids are eating well at home and they see that their parents are, completely happy with the way they’re eating and not thinking actually i want that thing over there or I want that thing over there, then they’re going to have the best example of…

Alison:
Uh sane food of sane food choices and you know what you were saying about that author and we we’ve watched that happen with gable i remember one particular party that we went to in florence it was one of the boys at his class one of his birthday parties i think gable must have been about nine maybe and um we went to the other side of florence to this park and, Italians do an amazing spread for kids birthday parties in parks and I’m trying not to you know be hyper vigilant and watch Gable because we’re trying to you know we were trying to, give him the space to make his own mistakes um this this is harder when it’s toddlers but like you said there is still some awareness there and Gable ate way too much and you know foods that he’s not used to and foods and and literally by the end of the party he was feeling so sick and rob had to carry him on his shoulders halfway across florence to get to the train oh my gosh and he was just like oh i feel so awful and the next day he felt so awful and we were like well, it’s the food you know um and and you know it it’s happened again since then but not to that extent because he knows what he did.

Andrea:
Well, some of us need more lessons and harder.

Alison:
The other thing that I didn’t say was I wonder if there’s any way you can steer the food that is being prepared. Now, if it’s potlucks, it’s hard because you can only bring what you bring. But if it’s a catered event where the church are putting on food themselves, you know, then is there a way you can talk to someone or volunteer to take over the food preparation in that way, making perhaps one of those events a bit easier? Because doing that, then you’re, you know, you talk to the rest of the parents there and they’re not going to all want their kids eating, you know, terrible food. So you’ll probably enthuse some of them if you’re able to present foods that are a healthy choice and yet still kid good.

Andrea:
So this is why we need T-shirts, Alison, and sweatshirts. That’s National Kidding Podcast.

Alison:
So people ask.

Andrea:
Everybody’s listening will influence slowly.

Alison:
Oh, we’re talking about T-shirts. Yeah, I was at the market on Saturday for last and I just thought I should have a sweatshirt with this on. Why have I not got one? Anyway, that’s a slight aside.

Andrea:
But I don’t have one because it’s impossible.

Alison:
Yeah. Okay.

Andrea:
On what you said about bringing Gabriel good food, I was going to say that is definitely a strategy of mine and a strategy when we, like I’ve talked about that when we talked about going on vacation, is I intentionally bring the food. I mean, obviously it’s more work and it’s not always very easy. And potlucks are supposed to be something that takes the load off. And for us, sometimes it just makes it harder.

Alison:
Yes.

Andrea:
But yeah. But I do try to bring something that maybe I don’t usually make. Like you said, it’s still good. It’s still something that is in our normal food, but it’s a little bit beyond my normal effort maybe. And that does help because it’s no good to walk a kid past this glorious spread and then make, now chew on this dry crust. Like nobody wants that. Nobody wants that. So I want them to feel as spoiled as possible.

Alison:
Yeah, because it’s a fun time for them, you know, and everyone else is there having fun. So they should have something that’s nice too.

Andrea:
I agree. I admit to being very pleased when we went to a potluck and there was these kind of like box pizzas served. And my kids, half of them wouldn’t eat it because they’re like, I don’t like that. And then the other half, they ate it. And then on the way home, they’re like, can we please eat some real food? I’m so hungry. That didn’t make me – and I was like, eh. But –.

Andrea:
I also, when we’ve attended church things, I’ve contacted the people who are running it and I say, hey, what can I bring? I’ll bring little drinks for the kids or whatever because there will usually be like Capri Suns, which is, I don’t know if you’ve seen those, but there’s a lot going on there. And so I’ll offer to bring something that, yes, an organic fruit kids juice is still not going to be my number one pick. But I’m going to bring that to the party because I would rather the kids drink one of those than, you know, the Capri Sun. And if I can make that choice, you know, I know that it will be acceptable to the group. But like you said, if you can change the food culture just a little bit, and I’ve been thinking hard and long about that, how I can, not just for my own sake of ease, but for the sake of the longevity of the group.

Alison:
Yeah, yeah.

Andrea:
For people to live a long time and not feeling well for that sake alone I want to help influence the food that happens in the events and I’ve been thinking about what I can do on that regards I’ve been thinking about starting like we talked about teaching classes there at the church just to just to start engaging in the food discussion and I know that that will begin to make an influence and also, There may be Hannah and you don’t know yet or they don’t know because maybe you’re, you know, food is weird because you try to be, I tried for too long, I think, to be really subtle and to be like, okay, I don’t like it, but they do a lot of it. Like that’s, and now I’m like, I’m just going to be the weird one. Like you’re just going to have to know it. But if there is one other mom, it makes it easier. And there is one other mom who she brings her own weird little snacks. Her kids say oh or people will say oh don’t give those to her kids they’re not allowed to have dyes and i’m like actually i want that reputation too like i like that instead of just having the kids bring them to me and i like stuff them down the side of my seat so that nobody sees like i’m gonna be everybody be like oh yeah andrea’s kids they don’t get that like we know so if there’s one other person it does make it easier yes i agree.

Alison:
I hope that helps. I hope that helps. And I think an important thing is to, even if it goes belly up, to try not to get just into a spiral of kind of frustration and anger yourself because that never helps the situation. And I know I’m talking to myself when I’m saying that.

Andrea:
Listen to Marcus talking about the guilt. Marcus talking about that, like how it’s that, that I have a lot of thoughts. It was so, so good. But that private podcast episode that you and him put out was, I feel like we need, there’s a lot there. We can have a KTC just talking about that episode.

Alison:
I could just say talking to him for several days.

Andrea:
I know. I wish you had, because I would be listening to that content right now. But at any rate just turning in making it an emotional nightmare for yourself is also difficult but um also talk about food from a sensitivity side like when people say um like instead of saying ah my kids my kids aren’t allowed to eat that those candies then i say and they’re really sensitive to them and they like they don’t do well and they don’t feel well people are more respectful of that than just you know the fact that dyes give you cancer yeah so if you say oh yeah we just don’t do well with that so we’re not able to have it and i also will say things like sometimes they still want it so it’s best to just not show it yeah yeah that’s that’s okay too yeah.

Alison:
Oh well thank you and i hope that helps hannah.

Andrea:
I hope so. All right. I’m going to read this quote, Allison, to transition us into the next.

Alison:
Okay.

Andrea:
So Leah sent me this quote from a book. I sent it to Allison. Allison said, why don’t we read this on the KTC? So here we are. Leah’s reading this book called, wow. She’s reading this book called Against the Machine by Paul Kingsnorth. And she’s got a lot of, she’s got like entire communities of people reading it now. So Leah’s what we call a book influencer Brittany has been buying copies To like hand out to people At this point It’s like a tract for her She’s like here, Rage against the machine with me, It’s, I have not read the book yet. I bought the book and I think we are starting a read-along as a podcast, Allison, in January. We already have a thread for it and there is already some discussion happening because Leah also listened to a talk from this guy and then she’s shared some quotes.

Alison:
Is he famous over your side of the Atlantic?

Andrea:
I don’t know.

Alison:
Because I looked him up and he’s like, he’s written novels, he’s been a columnist, he’s really got. Because I was like, how did he get a platform with such a major publisher saying what he’s saying? Because the major publishers kind of don’t want to say this, but he’s quite well established. I mean, like seriously, he’s got a following. So I’m surprised we hadn’t heard of him before.

Andrea:
Well, okay. I had heard of him in the sense that there, I like I had heard his name, but I couldn’t have told it to you if you’d asked me.

Alison:
Okay.

Andrea:
And I didn’t even remember that I’d heard his name. but he’s been discussed multiple times in different circles that I’m in, different books of his.

Alison:
I see.

Andrea:
Okay. And I don’t want to get his story wrong, but I think that he converted to Christianity at some point in the last few years. And his books are still written to the general audience. It’s not like somebody has to be a Christian to read his books, just like you didn’t have to not be a Christian to read his books before.

Alison:
Yes.

Andrea:
But I think for some reason that –, Gave him some kind of a, I don’t know, maybe it connected a dot for him on maybe more transcendent side of things. I have no idea. This is a question for Leah. But at any rate, she has sent me some amazing quotes, and I’ve been forwarding them on to you, and we’re both enjoying them. So here’s one that he said. And one reason why I haven’t read his book yet, Allison, is I told Leah, everything you’re sending me, I feel like, is something Allison and I have said on the podcast. And I want to keep writing a little bit more before I read his book because I feel like if his book had come out before some of the things I’ve said, people would think I was plagiarizing him. But I said them before I wrote the book, so you know it was just my ideas or the ideas that have grown around me that I shared about. And so that’s part of the reason why. But in episode , I feel like we said this very well.

Andrea:
But here’s a quote from Against the Machine. My point is not that women should get back into the kitchen, but that we all should, and into the other rooms of the home, too. Machine modernity prized the men away from the home first, as the Industrial Revolution broke their cottage industries and swept them into the factories and mines where their brute strength could be useful to the machine. Later, the women, who had been mostly left to tend the home single-handedly, were subject to the same liberation, which was sold to them as a blow struck against inequality. Perhaps it was, but it was also a blow struck against the home for both sexes. It’s a fascinating quote.

Alison:
I read it to Rob because very often in the last couple of years, and particularly when we were reading… Oh there’s a book which um the feminism book yeah the feminism book I’ve completely forgotten what it’s called feminism against something I’ve forgotten we have talked about it on discord.

Alison:
Um and Rob’s heard me talk a lot about women’s role in the kitchen how that’s been lost and that’s been lost and he’s seen me do the research on ale and seen me do all this other research and seen all the things we’ve talked about and he said to me it’s it the men feel further away from it you you know the perhaps I mean perhaps women feel what’s happened to them because.

Alison:
They’re closer to it it’s not as long since they’ve been torn away from the kitchen you know and he said but but the men were taken away too and the way Rob and I work you know we’re we’re both at home and Rob’s doing stuff like I said Rob’s getting the bread out of the oven he’s checking the bread he helped me with the bread this morning when I was up doing upstairs doing something else he’s part of our kitchen mechanics it wouldn’t work the whole thing wouldn’t work without him he he’s there and the men used to be there too doing things in the home and it’s it feels closer for us to say oh you know well we should value women’s work we should value, um what what women used to do but he feels himself like well men used to do this too just because they were taken out of the home you know years before women but they’re they’re supposed to be part of it it’s supposed to be about a unit together running a home and i read him the quote and he was like that’s exactly what i say when i talked to you about it but he said it’s.

Andrea:
That’s what I’m saying is like this book, that’s why I’m like I said, I’m almost afraid to read it because I feel like every time I bump into a quote, Leah sends me, I’m like, did you know we have an episode about that? Or like we literally, I literally emailed Alice in that four days ago or something. And it’s exactly what Rob said. And this guy’s, it’s almost like shocking to see it articulated somewhere because you didn’t realize anybody else was thinking about it.

Alison:
But like Marcus said too.

Andrea:
Well, I thought I had this original idea and then I found a book written about it in .

Alison:
Yeah. And it’s not just that someone else is thinking about it. It’s that someone else who’s actually done a lot of writing and is quite well known and has had a book published about it by one of the major publishers who usually tell ideas like this where to go, you know. It’s incredible.

Andrea:
It is shocking.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
And I do, I so agree with Rob. And I think that that’s part of why the feminism message and the, this like trad wife trend in the US and stuff. I feel like it’s also garbled because people are like, see, we’re putting women back in the home where they really belonged. And then the feminists are like, wait, that’s, but you, well, you have the choice and that’s because of feminism or whatever. And it’s like, no, everybody, everybody, all of you are wrong. Everybody’s wrong. Like, we all belonged here. And there’s a lot negative we could say about the Puritans, let’s just put it that way. But the Puritans left us some interesting, really fascinating stuff in terms of like poetry and letters and things that they’ve written, where you do see these really vivid images of a man and a woman kind of owning their domain of their home. And like you and Rob, you know, producing from within their home, the things that sustain their family and maybe that they trade or barter or sell off, you know, for the wider gain of their property. Yeah. Yeah, this is, this is a fascinating, I am fascinated to read the book.

Alison:
It’s reminding me of Sharon Hayes’ book, Radical Homemakers, you know, it’s a classic now, it’s a long time ago, but I remember her interviewing people, you know, couples and them talking about this kind of thing. I remember the name of that book now, it’s Feminism Against Progress. Yeah.

Andrea:
Um okay and you shared some really interesting tidbits from that book it’s a disturbing.

Alison:
Book but a very very good book.

Andrea:
I know that um disturbing that some of the books are disturbing some.

Alison:
Of the um supporters have read it but um.

Andrea:
Yeah i mean.

Alison:
It’s just amazing and i’m looking forward to the to the read-along that we’re going to do um if people are listening and they are not on discord we will try to make sure that we put the read-along information kind of out um on an email to all supporters too so if you.

Andrea:
Oh you know i’m making a note to make a post you do an email i’ll do a post in wordpress um where i’ll just note to it and if if you’re listening and you aren’t on discord um if you can get on it is really really nice to be able to get in there and discuss these things with people and it isn’t a social media so you’re not going to see the faces of everybody you know you will only see the people who have um you know basically joined us like you on this on if you’re listening to this and they also paid to support the podcast so it’s it’s going to be a more limited audience it’s not like oh look my high school teacher what.

Alison:
We should also do is put make a new um section in the podcast bookstore online um called.

Andrea:
Read alongs or.

Alison:
Something and we should put.

Andrea:
That book into the bookstore book it’s bookshop.org.

Alison:
Our own affiliate kind of thing which means that you don’t go to amazon and a percentage goes to local bookstores and we get a tiny kind of kickback as well if you buy something yeah on there can.

Andrea:
You do the uk side.

Alison:
Yeah the.

Andrea:
Us side okay i’m just making a note of that.

Alison:
Yeah, I’m interested to read it with everyone. And I said to Rob, you know, can we read it together? And we looked at how much it was and what format we’re going to buy in. Do we want it electronically or do we want the actual hard? Because it’s only hardback at the moment. I couldn’t see a paperback.

Andrea:
Yeah.

Alison:
And so, yeah, I’m also interested because, you know, although both Rob and I are very spiritual, We’re not particularly affiliated with any, you know, specific religion. So I’m interested to see how that translates to how we feel about, you know, that side of our life and our souls as well.

Andrea:
Which will be interesting. I’m curious to hear how it reads for you also, because I’ve been told that it’s, you know, everybody can enjoy it. So, but that’s yet to be seen as you haven’t given me a review. And yeah, it’s one of those books where it’s new. And so really, you can only buy new copies unless you happen to see one someone I just dropped off at a bookstore. So it is kind of a more expensive version of a read-along than you might otherwise normally have.

Alison:
Yeah, it might be in the library. I think maybe some libraries might have it, but I doubt I’ve got it here.

Andrea:
I think a number of people in the group here were saying that they requested their libraries to buy it.

Alison:
I used to be able to do that in Cornwall. I used to be able to say, please buy this book. And then like three weeks later, I’d get an email saying, we’ve bought it. I was like, oh, crikey, they used to buy all these books because I asked. But now in Gloucestershire, they kind of don’t do that. You just send off a form and it goes into the middle of nowhere and you never hear again whether they ever got it. Or so I’ve stopped doing that now.

Andrea:
Well, there’s the machine. That’s exactly what he’s talking about. Yeah. Okay, I’m going to read a question.

Alison:
Okay.

Andrea:
I think I’m going to read this one from Ella because it kind of connects to what we talked about with Emma’s questions. This is from Ella. She said, I’m wondering if you have ideas for getting kids used to ancestral food. My husband and I are working on getting licensed to hopefully adopt from foster care and would like some advice on helping kids adjust to a different way of eating.

Alison:
Wow.

Andrea:
This is a complicated one, because I also will say when you’re working in foster care, the kids coming into your home, I mean, there’s all varying degrees of what they’ve been exposed to. But they are separated from their family, obviously, by being placed somewhere. And so there is trauma. and immediately then taking away perhaps the only sense of continuity they might have, which is, you know, the brand of macaroni they like or something, might not be a good thing to start out with. And so I feel like that probably sounds contrary coming after what I just said about the potlucks. But taking, you know, I’m going to refer to the Marcus episode again, And when he talked about like this nutrient and that nutrient, but you have to look at the whole thing. So you can look at this aspect of the kid in that aspect of the kid, but you have to look at the whole child as well. And if you have a child who is, you know, seven and like sleeping under their bed because of fear, you know, my sister worked with kids like that where they would go to check on them at night and they were sleeping under the bed because that was the only way they felt safe. Um.

Andrea:
I know that I want to get the nutrients into them, but we have to take into account the whole child, the entire limbic system, and just the big picture needs to be looked at. So whatever you do, I would do it the most gently and thoughtfully, and I wouldn’t get upset if the child cannot adjust to your new wave. I wouldn’t use that as a reason to get upset or frustrated. Because also, these kids may or may not have any sense of control in their life. And considering that, and then you tell them what they can put on their plate, that could do a different kind of damage. So maybe the child stays in your home and they eat things that you’re like, I could never, and it might feel like you’re being unkind to the child. But if you can put the other good things around them and expose them and mix them in where it’s possible and whatnot, um.

Andrea:
Thinking about the long game, that child may grow and say, there was this family I stayed with and you know, they’re either going to say they’re horrible. Like they didn’t let me eat anything that I liked. I know it wasn’t good, but they didn’t let me eat it. And they just force fed me liver and they didn’t let me have potato chips or whatever. But if they’re like, you know, they just kept, they always had the most interesting things on the table and I never ate them but I looked at them and now as an adult I’m interested you know like there’s we just have to think about the long game and and the aspects of trauma that they’ve gone through to get to the point where they’re in your home so that that is a thought just that I want to lay on the table right out of the gate with this yeah.

Alison:
Ella doesn’t say um how long.

Andrea:
How old or how old and I think those two things are quite important i know she’s.

Alison:
On discord so do feel free to come and you know discuss it further.

Andrea:
If you want.

Alison:
To afterwards ella because i think it it depends on you know if you’re having a child for a number of years that’s very different.

Andrea:
Than having a child.

Alison:
Just for a couple of months and if the child’s two that’s very different than the child who’s you know so it’s um.

Andrea:
And a child who’s staying with you for a week or like emergency weekends or something is very different than a child that’s integrating with your family for maybe the next decade. Yeah, completely.

Alison:
If Ella was taking children who were going to stay with her for a longer amount of time, then I feel like, you know, the… It depends so much on who that child is, you know, and what they’re interested in. Because for a child who likes doing stuff in the kitchen, a great way to get them involved is to get them involved in the kitchen, to move them forward, you know, to get them involved in the kitchen and to work out what they really like to eat.

Andrea:
That would be a good therapy, almost.

Alison:
Yeah, work out what they really like and see if you can tweak one thing in that thing they really like.

Andrea:
Or maybe tell them, did you know we can make Pop-Tarts?

Alison:
Let’s make.

Andrea:
Pop dress at home.

Alison:
You know just.

Andrea:
Make it fun and interesting and and preferably don’t I’m going to make note of that book Leah also shared with us called the happy dinner table like don’t don’t pitch a fit.

Alison:
Yeah if.

Andrea:
They pitch a fit you know be the adult in the room.

Alison:
Um I feel like you know there are ways to make things like if the child likes soups for example or particular type of soup you know there’s a way you can use proper broth in there instead of using a cube in that and even if that’s the only thing that they’re all doing if they if they love i don’t know gable loves carrot and coriander soup but you know if they just love one particular soup chicken noodle soup then then exactly you can just use proper broth in it rather than yeah a cube um it might be that they’re used to the taste of the cubes it becomes hard then but there are ways i know that i’ve talked to people who you know whose kids like um noodles like you said and and they’ve instead of getting the one where you just pour boiling water on and it rehydrates they’ve actually tried to make the noodles you know with a bit of miso or a bit of tahini and chopped leftover um meat and, and really good noodles and potentially you can try to mimic some of the other dishes with better ingredients in or making cookies with like butter instead of some horrible oil in it’s.

Andrea:
Of crisco yeah.

Alison:
Um but it it depends on on the individual child and and getting involved If they want to get involved, that’s even better. But yeah, it’s hard to know until you’ve got that actual child with you, I think, you know?

Andrea:
Yeah. I think I would be prepared for all eventualities. And also Cindy Rollins, who we’ve talked about on the podcast before, she has a podcast called The New Mason Jar with Cindy Rollins. And it’s more focused on homeschool. But she has nine kids. I think it’s nine. You know, so they’re not foster kids, but so it’s a different kind of experience. But it is experience with children nonetheless. And one of her most… Helpful pieces of advice that I heard was, she said, be impervious and ignore initial bluster. So when they’re just like falling apart, you just think, sometimes I have to repeat to myself, I’m impervious, I’m impervious. Be impervious to the bluster. And then when they’re initially saying, I won’t do it, I shan’t, I shan’t, you know, then you just kind of ignore that because, you know, like they’re kind of expressing themselves and their independence or whatever you want to say and then they’ll probably carry on and you know maybe do the task I had for them or whatever.

Alison:
But she is right I feel like you’re talking to me there it’s just Gabriel is just like he is initial bluster he just is yeah yes like um we were we had a task to read, a second chapter of a kind of a history book ready for the group that he goes to on a Thursday, and he was like initially no I’m not gonna sit and listen to you no I’m not gonna do no no I’m not doing it all the initial blaster and then I read the first bit um when we were at Rob’s mum’s and then I read the second half on the train on the way home yesterday just me and him yeah he was like having a rest and lying on my lap and and we actually got chatting about the different stone tools how they were different in the paleolithic compared to the neolithic and how they would have cooked and it was really he was really interested in it but gosh initial bluster you know and I think her advice is so good just ignore the initial bluster because otherwise you’d be turned you’d be just like oh I can’t do this no I’m not doing it it’s just too much yeah and you throw the.

Andrea:
Book down and you say you know what I don’t I won’t either and then and then you just I mean, I would never, of course, never succumb to this, Alison, me being so perfect as I am. But then you turn into the child and you’re like, then we won’t. You know, I’m not going to read it to you. That never goes well.

Alison:
No, no, no, no.

Andrea:
I guess I would take those things to heart. I would be impervious and ignore initial bluster. And I think your thought on the broth is a good one, Alison. Like, we do not have to start out with fried liver and onions. But if you make, like you said, something they are familiar with and you’re just sneaking, I hate that word, but you’re just gently incorporating aspects that you know are a little bit better but not going to throw their nervous system into chaos and feel spiraling, then that’s worth doing. And I’ll bet there’s a lot you could do. And thinking too about Hilary Boynton, who we interviewed on the podcast actually a couple of years ago now, and how she said her thinking behind getting really good school lunches was, if I can get one good meal a day into these kids.

Andrea:
That’s seven, or not seven, I guess, five meals a week. Yeah and then snacks on top of it so it’s like you know yeah and she i remember being just so amazed at how much value she was giving to well look even if the kids are eating junk at home they’re getting this one good meal a week so and thinking yeah you know what like that would make a difference um it it doesn’t always have to be all or nothing like i i am all or nothing person and I want it to be all or nothing, but if I can say at least they got the broth in, that was something, you know.

Andrea:
Working them towards, you know, mental goal that I might have a step in the direction still has value even if I didn’t convert them on day one or something. Congratulations, Ella.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
And I’m glad you are getting licensed. It’s a really big deal, you and your husband. So thank you for what you’re doing.

Alison:
Yeah, important work.

Andrea:
For children and families everywhere. So, so important. So valuable.

Alison:
Okay, we’ve got another question, haven’t we? Do you want me to read that one?

Andrea:
I have a question and a comment from Brittany. Okay, go on, you read it then. She told it to me, she sent it to me in a voicemail, so I’ll tell you what she said. I wrote down kind of in brave-ay, but she said, so she’s taking your rye course and your Boza course, and I think your chocolate course and your Sewn’s course.

Alison:
Just everything I’ve ever done.

Andrea:
She messaged me and she said i started watching allison’s rye course i just have to say i just love her everything she does she clearly researches to the nth degree and then she asked me how did you two meet and have you ever met in person and i think we get asked this frequently so we should probably answer this one do.

Alison:
You want to do you want to do the i’m going to make up some story about how we bumped into each.

Andrea:
Other you know what we need we need a better story yeah it was it was a club allison we were in a club it was dark exactly, yeah no you got you got dizzy and you had to sit down and i had pots so i had to sit down and we were both sitting on the curb together yeah and and rob was playing music that’s how it happened. Yeah, exactly. Well, actually, it was on Instagram. And Rob did point this out the other day. As I heard you mentioned to Marcus on the episode that I will never stop referencing. But you were saying how, you know, phones burn them. And Rob said, well, if it wasn’t for Instagram, you would never have met Andrea. And you wouldn’t be recording a podcast, which is Thanks, Rob. Such a great point. So you were posting. You had just gotten back onto Instagram. I literally think you had seven followers when I found your account. And… You have thousands now.

Alison:
Oh, I don’t know. I haven’t been on there for two and a half years. I don’t know.

Andrea:
We wouldn’t know. You were posting something that you called cook-ups, cook-alongs?

Alison:
Yeah, cook-alongs. Cook-ups. Yeah, cook-ups, I remember now.

Andrea:
Cook-ups. Yeah, I think it was cook-ups. And they were really good. So you would post like a recipe and then you would say, or you could put in this, or you could put in this, or you could do this, or you could leave that out, or you could try this, or you could try that. And I thought, wow, she cooks how I cook. And I feel like you just don’t see that online. everybody’s like i only use these type of grain beans and i only use three grams because if you do any more than that it’s just a little bit too much it’s not french anymore but you were just like i mean whatever you have what’s in season in your region everybody wherever you are cook this stew and then send me a picture and and like we’ll talk about it and i was like oh oh hello bucko, hi and i just loved that so then we kind of started chatting on instagram and um, and then i remember sitting on the edge of the bed in our new house reading message from you and you said have you ever thought about doing a podcast, and you would you want to do one together and i remember thinking this is probably one of those things that will turn out to be a lot more work than it seems like at the outset yes and then i thought premonition was correct and then i thought i’m gonna really regret it for the rest of my life if i say no, And I said, yes.

Alison:
You haven’t told me that bit before.

Andrea:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that premonition is probably also correct. I just thought about the future of my life and like what I’m doing and what’s the point of this. And like I’m in my kitchen, but and I already I already had the bitter taste of Instagram in my mouth a little bit. And it didn’t feel like a real future for me. And, you know, you know what I mean?

Alison:
Yeah, absolutely. I think I think you’ve got all the the main facts in place for sure you did a when I had been only been on Instagram for a little while I know that um and um I did the cook-ups and then you did a um kind of a hashtag challenge thing um very farmish oh yeah and you asked me if I wanted to kind of be part of it I remember and I remember thinking oh gosh.

Andrea:
Was that before the podcast.

Alison:
Yeah That was before the podcast, yeah, that was.

Andrea:
Oh, wow.

Alison:
And I remember thinking, oh, can I really be on Instagram that much? I’ve kind of taken away from it because I kind of cut away from it from my previous business and I’ve been off it for like two and a half years or three years or something. And I was a bit like, oh, is it going to get me on Instagram too much? Am I going to get sucked back in? Anyway, I did it and it was fine because you were like, oh, no, just post when you want to, you know, it doesn’t matter. And then it was it was as if it was as if you were kind of sent by some kind of all-knowing angel because I’d been I’d wanted to do a podcast for such a long time and I kept I kept looking and.

Alison:
On my podcast app thinking there must be a podcast I mean it just must be like every few months I’d look on my app there must be a podcast about this I mean come on you know it must be someone who’s cooking this way and there’s just nothing and I’d listen to other food podcasts and I’d be like no you know what why don’t you talk about that a bit more and and they never did.

Alison:
And um we just moved to Florence and I remember going into the bedroom I think I’ve told you this story before saying to rob i’m gonna just record myself and see how i sound because i really want to do this podcast thing and i went into the bedroom and i shut the door and i recorded myself and i and i listened to it and i just i was just cringing because you know it’s always bad when you listen to your own voice but on top of that i thought this is just i need someone to bounce off i can’t do this by myself i i need someone to share and i’ll talk about what they’ve talked about and they can talk about what i’ve talked about and and it will just be like a conversation rather than just me talking about something you know to no one um and i remember being so frustrated and saying to rob oh it just sounds rubbish i can’t i can’t do it i need someone else and i don’t know anyone else what am i going to do and he’s like oh just wait just wait it you know if it’s meant to be it’ll come to fruition and then did because you just appeared and um i thought hang on this is this is this person that i could talk to i want to know more about what she’s doing in her kitchen it looks really interesting so why don’t we just talk about it.

Alison:
Um and yeah that’s when I sent you that message.

Andrea:
How does Rob always know? We’re over it. How does he always know?

Alison:
I don’t know. It’s so frustrating sometimes. Why did I not know?

Andrea:
Never tell him. Rob, never read this transcript.

Alison:
No, exactly. We won’t tell him.

Andrea:
As a podcast pair, I feel like we are a good pair in so many ways, and not the least of which that you have a British accent and I have an American accent.

Alison:
Yes.

Andrea:
And so when you listen to us talk, it’s very clear who is talking.

Alison:
Yes, I know. And I’ve listened to podcasts with pairs before, and I’m like, who are they? And because I can’t tell them apart, I never really gel with their names quite as well than a pair I can tell apart.

Andrea:
Yeah, you don’t get their kind of identity.

Alison:
Yeah, yeah.

Andrea:
Yeah. I know what you mean. So I think that that works out pretty well. And then we both have, you know, you’re in town. Yeah. So you can kind of give the perspective of doing this in town.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
I’m in the countryside.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
So I can kind of give the perspective from that side. Then you’re European.

Alison:
Yeah.

Andrea:
I’m American. So there’s that contrast.

Alison:
You have big family. I have a small family.

Andrea:
Yeah. Yeah. You’ve got one son and I’ve got the four kids at this point now.

Alison:
And you’re like, hey, everything will be okay. And I’m like, oh, he’s going wrong. He’s going wrong. And so that balance it out.

Andrea:
Hey, are you talking about the business side of things? Are you talking about the food? i.

Alison:
Don’t know both maybe.

Andrea:
You’re like okay um i’m gonna do this episode three months from now i wrote the notes do give them a look they’re in the thing and me i’m like literally that i just i don’t know i don’t know how my brain works but my brain like it, It turns it over and over and over and over. And, like, if I write it on too early, it’s, like, premature.

Alison:
Yeah, so you’re working on it in the background kind of thing.

Andrea:
It happens and it happens. And, unfortunately, for everybody else.

Alison:
Yeah. They’re like, has she done anything? What’s going on?

Andrea:
Yeah. And then the night before we recorded, I think at o’clock at night, I was like, it’s ready. And, like, I sat down and I wrote the entire Milk episode in, like, minutes.

Alison:
It’s like having a baby.

Andrea:
You just had to see the notes yeah it is but unfortunately i i do feel bad because you like to be able to look in advance i’m trying to get better i’m trying to like move that mental birth date like up sooner because my brain kind of relies on that that little yeah i don’t understand the.

Alison:
Differences in our personalities what drives them because you know i i hate last minute things i just go into an absolute kind of panic if you know if there’s any deadline in the future at all I just want it done immediately because I.

Andrea:
Don’t like.

Alison:
Deadlines hanging over my head. And if I got to the night before and I hadn’t written it, I would just, I don’t know, I’d be in a panic. It’s like when I was at college, you know, some of my friends stayed up all night, you know, the night before writing their essays. And whereas I’d written the essay, you know, a week before, you know, the two days after you got the title for it, I was done. and and I I just I couldn’t cope with your way of being and you wouldn’t be.

Andrea:
Able to do.

Alison:
My way of being and and you know.

Andrea:
It’s a weirdly school well school didn’t feel like it like a lot of it was not really inspiration based like if you have to do math homework you do math homework yeah yeah and so I didn’t I don’t know I was always early with assignments I didn’t oh gosh yeah I didn’t really feel that maybe stories like when i did creative writing maybe those would come closer to the core but i i don’t know i i with the things that don’t need, They don’t require some like really elemental part of my spirit in them. That’s no problem getting that done early. So that’s weird. I don’t know. I never really thought about it until you said that just now.

Alison:
I do need cogitating time, like this pork episode that we’re getting ready for January. What I usually do is I think about it for a bit and I think about the structure and how it might be. And then I wait a few days and then I come back to it and I read something that’s relevant to it. and then I wait a few days and then I come back to it and I add some stuff on. So it’s not like I’m not cogitating. I’m just cogitating in a different way. I think maybe, I don’t know. It’s just interesting.

Andrea:
I mean, your depth of thought in things as Brittany has so astutely picked up on, your depth of thought. I mean, I know because I end up seeing little aspects of your creative process as we go along something. And so I’m like… I see how long, like this pork episode is, I mean, in a way it’s been years in the making. But certainly in the practical side of really crafting the episode, you’ve been doing it for a long time and it’s not even coming out until, you know, two months from now or whatever. So it’s not like you’re just like slapdash, not at all. If anything, I feel like you think about things more. But it just emerges differently.

Alison:
Yeah, yeah, it does. um and it’s interesting that you know there’s ups and downs that come with that because we’ve both had to get used to the way we each individually are but there’s also benefits that come from that big time because well that’s true we’ve both had different approaches when it comes to business strategies and ideas and kind of inputs for how we could move the podcast forward or ideas for the books that we’ve done and and other stuff like that so it you know it if it had just been a carbon copy of me being my partner then the podcast wouldn’t be what it was what it is and if it had just been a carbon copy of you as your partner the podcast wouldn’t be what it is it’d.

Andrea:
Be like three.

Alison:
Episodes they’d be really good but that’s.

Andrea:
Where it would end.

Alison:
So it it you know Whoever decided that, just whoever kind of nudged my shoulder and said, oh, why don’t you contact Andrea? Had some wisdom, I think.

Andrea:
Well, whoever was nudging you was nudging me back because I felt that, like you called it a premonition or whatever, jokingly. But kind of felt that sense of, this is something really significant. Like, this isn’t just a, you know, oh, let’s do this hashtag on Instagram thing. This was more like a marriage proposal in a way. Like, more serious and more commitment involved. And I knew… That it wasn’t going to just be you know an hour a month or something yeah i was like i i know i’m not agreeing to just dip my toe in like if i’m and this is the way i am with everything like if i’m doing this i am definitely doing yeah this is this is all or nothing.

Alison:
Like you said earlier.

Andrea:
Yeah as you know yeah yeah oh call back to something oh by the way have we ever met in person oh no other than in the club oh no.

Alison:
Apart from that one.

Andrea:
Night although i do think i do think we met in a dream once do you remember allison yes because i had a dream about you and that you were coming to meet me and i was so surprised that you came here and i told you oh we had like this long hug and it just felt so good and you had dreamed that you were like running to the airport yes i just thought it was so crazy i was like what did we just like meet in dreams like this is wild hey.

Alison:
Weird we we we will meet i think um and i don’t know which way.

Andrea:
It’s gonna go.

Alison:
Whether it’ll be over here or over there um because you never know.

Andrea:
What’s gonna happen i really want to i really want to come yeah well that’s the point you don’t particularly want to fly i don’t particularly want to come to the states.

Alison:
Although i think.

Andrea:
If if.

Alison:
Chelsea green say yes to my book they might try to persuade me and you know.

Andrea:
There’s there’s.

Alison:
Not just that over that side of the atlantic there’s the idea that potentially i could meet up with you at the same time which.

Andrea:
That’s true is appealing but i still.

Alison:
Don’t want to get on a plane so we’ll see.

Andrea:
No it’s a lot um i was going to call back to when you said that you were looking for podcasts, and you kept thinking there’s got to be somebody out there doing this and this is something if If you go back and listen to anybody listening to this goes back to the November KTC live that we just did. So it just came out last month. Then. We talked about how, you know, you’re looking for somebody doing something and they’re talking about it all historically. And then they say, and then we just do this this modern way now because, you know, everybody has a microwave. So we just put in the microwave. And Rachel was texting me and she said she heard this really interesting I don’t know what it was podcast essay something talking about the Sumerians and how they made this very traditional bread and this is how it was done and we have all this evidence of it and then they made it with white flour.

Alison:
Yay surprise what she.

Andrea:
I know I said I said I said that is exactly how it feels everywhere you look everybody says oh no the machine it really has us well I guess that’s our fate now.

Alison:
Yeah let’s just use yeast from a packet.

Andrea:
That’s always the yeast so.

Alison:
Is that the Rachel who was sitting around the table with you on the mum chats that went out last month I’m halfway through listening to that and I thoroughly I’ve been thoroughly enjoying it yeah exactly it took me some time to get that far um I it was so nice to just to imagine you kind of sitting around chatting and you know passing the mic round and and so good to have lots of different perspectives on the same topic you know and and you know the fact that some of the family like Kirsten’s family from Canada is much smaller and some of the families are much much bigger again it’s that kind of contrast of perspectives it was really um it was really engaging so yeah if you’re if you’re listening and you haven’t listened to last month’s kind of ktc it was a chat that andrea did around the table with um lots of people who either support the podcast or are just generally eating and living this way and so go back and have a look at that one.

Andrea:
And it was on that KTC. It was that weekend, actually. Everybody who’s on there was camping out here for the whole weekend. And I was thinking about that when we were reading Hannah’s questions. Because something, I don’t know if we said this on the KTC or if it was just a discussion that we had but something everybody said was the um like the just the bizarre uh relaxation or um letting down of their guard they felt that there was nothing to really avoid like the food was all yeah okay perfect you know what i’m saying and you don’t say no one’s going to.

Alison:
Look at you strangely if you say a certain thing.

Andrea:
Yes and i did say this on the episode we had a family out here where there are some really unique dietary needs. Like, you know, Jack who can’t have apples and can’t have nuts and can’t have coconut and can’t have dairy and can’t have gluten. And, you know, so it’s not that every single person could eat every single thing, but there was… And the food was all so basic that he could pick from everything and take whatever worked for him. And we just didn’t even bring butter down. We just used lard for everything. So by default, everything was dairy-free. And so then we knew if he wanted it, he could take it. If he didn’t want it, he didn’t have to take it. It didn’t really matter. We were all happy with it. And it was kind of surreal like almost one of those things where you don’t know how much of a strain.

Alison:
Yes you’re under until the strain is lifted absolutely it felt like that when i met up with um fiona and amelia and jen and nicole at fiona’s place last year it just, it was being in the kitchen together that made me feel like realize that it’s just the idea of well, everything that we’re preparing in here everyone is going to enjoy you know there’s no oh what oil are you using or what you’re putting in that dressing or oh how much sugar you’re putting so good and you know it was it was all it’s just so surreal you know you sort of had to pinch yourself to think well we’re all just making really good food it’s, It’s like you don’t realize until you go in a situation where it’s okay, what it’s like and what strain you are under, just like you said, in other environments.

Andrea:
I really want to encourage everybody to listen to the episode you did with Marcus and then follow up with the it’s almost a full another podcast episode like minutes that you put on the private podcast because I felt like he hold on so many of our theses of the entire podcast. Just in his discussion of cacao. And one thing that struck me was actually something I had specifically said to Leah earlier. Maybe two or three weeks ago, she and Brittany and I were talking and Leah had gotten rid of her smartphone and she got like a dumb phone. And she was saying, you know, I feel like I’m just getting sucked into reading stuff on, you know, chats or texting or Voxer or whatever.

Andrea:
And another friend was saying that, too. And they’re both very ancestrally minded. And I said, both of you are actually there’s three of them. And they all live really far from everybody. no real community around them don’t maybe don’t have vehicles or don’t drive or don’t have a license or whatever all different things but they’re not like seeing people all the time and i said when the three when you were here they didn’t even pick up their phones because and i thought of that with the rat illustration that marcus gave because i had said to them i don’t think you’re really addicted I think you just you are really in the wrong lonely or isolated space yeah looking yeah and that’s the challenge we run into is they’re they can’t really like they’re on some of them big properties or whatever it’s not they can just change everything but, what can change and how can it change and and you know we we have stories of people who lived isolated you know and lighthouse towers and stuff that would go crazy eventually because we are herd animals and you know maybe they would have instead been like oh I was addicted to Facebook or something rather than well I went crazy and walked off a cliff because I just couldn’t take the isolation anymore but like we really need that and so Marcus’s example was so poignant I thought.

Alison:
I couldn’t believe it when he said that because I mean he’s like.

Andrea:
Super scientist.

Alison:
You know he reads everything and and he somehow he manages to just have it in his head like available to delve.

Andrea:
Into at any point.

Alison:
I don’t know how he does it, but the idea that those, you know, the rats, They keep choosing to have that addiction when they’re isolated. And then they just don’t when they’re not. I mean, it’s just so huge.

Andrea:
When he put them in the rat park, that just blew my mind. And I was like, this is why social media is taking over. Yes, absolutely. We have created in the past couple decades the most nuclear, isolated type of society that you can imagine. Everybody’s like hermits, basically. And then you put a phone in their hand where they can get, you know, actually connect to, and I’m not saying this lightly, they can connect to true friends. Like Leah and I have connected over the internet. You and I connected over the internet, you know, true friendships and friendships that leave you thinking and considering what you’ll say and composing messages in your head to send later, you know, real friendships. You hand that to somebody who’s completely isolated. Of course, they’re going to push that button again. Like, why wouldn’t they? That episode was really, really good.

Alison:
And it perpetuates it because once you start those connections on there, it’s easier to just stay on those connections on there and not get out. It’s interesting that I remember Katie Bowman saying something I read of hers maybe four or five years ago.

Alison:
She was doing this kind of drive on social media I think to try and get people to put down their phones and she said the more time you give to the virtual world the less energy you have for outside you just that’s what happens and so you know if you want to be off your phone well you actually physically have to go out and try to connect with real people and when you start doing that you won’t have as much energy to be on your phone because your energy will be going there but you you have to actually push the energy to go in a different direction to start with otherwise it’s just gonna get sucked back into that and it feels like that fits with Marcus’s study you know because if we look down from the phone and try and go out and make connections those connections do work a bit like glue because we when we meet someone we connect with it is just it’s so different being with someone in person looking in their eyes you know being able to to feel their energy and that gives us the motivation potentially to stay out there rather than go back into a phone um so i feel yeah i feel like it’s each of those options perpetuates itself.

Alison:
And if we’re not careful and conscious we can end up just perpetuating the online world, to our disservice.

Andrea:
Yeah well to to marcus is not metaphor but the study that he was talking about but to carry it as a metaphor on we we have to build the park like he’s talking about a rat park that the scientist built for rats you know and if you if you go listen to the episode he’s referencing a study where rats were given this button to push to get you know cocaine basically, and they’re like oh wow look the rats will just push it forever they’re just like look human in nature we’ll just take the addiction and then he was like yeah but what if you those rats are all isolated and in cubes what if you gave them like a stimulating environment and he gave them this beautiful little rat park and lo and behold they weren’t as interested in the cocaine anymore, which can i also say one of my favorite things about marcus is when he talks because he knows what he’s talking about so well he talks pretty fast and then he’ll suddenly do this really quick super detailed, super articulate aside. And then it was like, anywho, and go back into this. I just, every time we did that, I just laughed. I just loved it so much. But it made me think, oh my gosh, like we have to build the park. It’s up to us. And it’s a lot for us. But guess what? Then our kids get to live in the park. Our kids have the advantage of the park that we put all our effort into. And so we’re making it a little bit easier for the next generation, hopefully.

Alison:
Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea:
Also, Alison, when I come to England, listening to you and Marcus record live together, I was like, yeah, when I come to England, Rob and Gabriel are just going to have to like plan something because we’re going to record every single day.

Alison:
Oh, I think we should record a lot. I think we should video possibly as well, although Rob might have to be here for that one. But I think we should definitely record in person. I think we should go out somewhere and take the microphone with us and like talk there as well, which would be nice.

Andrea:
Maybe we can go to Fiona’s.

Alison:
Yeah, that would be nice.

Andrea:
I don’t know if that’s an option.

Alison:
Yeah, it’s not too far. It’s not too far. We could. We could go to Amelia’s.

Andrea:
We could go to Emma’s.

Alison:
Yeah, we could. That’s harder because she’s the other side of London up in the – it takes a long time to get there. I’ve already looked it up. Trust me. It takes a long time to get there from here.

Andrea:
I really want to see her house. But to me, everything in England is not that far apart because – Oh.

Alison:
You’d like Fiona’s house. Definitely.

Andrea:
I like all of y’all’s houses. Let’s just put it that way.

Alison:
Yeah. Yes.

Andrea:
Well, Alison, I don’t even know how long we’ve been recording.

Alison:
No, nor do I.

Andrea:
Probably six hours.

Alison:
I don’t know. It’s still light.

Andrea:
Oh, okay. We’ve been on here for an hour and minutes. I don’t know how long actually recording is because some of the beginning was just setting up. But yeah, we have to go.

Alison:
I think. Thank you very much.

Andrea:
It’s a good one.

Alison:
And this is our last KTC for , isn’t it? Because this is a December one. So we will be back.

Andrea:
We have one more episode to come out this month and then.

Alison:
Yeah, we will be back in.

Andrea:
And then it’ll be the new year.

Alison:
January, ready for another year of brilliant podcasts.

Andrea:
Building the park. The rat park.

Alison:
Yeah, yeah, indeed. Lovely to talk to you.

Andrea:
I’m ready for it. Good to see you, Alison. Have a good afternoon.

Alison:
And you have a good day. Bye for now.

Andrea:
Bye.

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